Construction Zone
Don\
Welcome! Log In Register

Advanced

VW 020 Close Ratio stuff

Posted by hoche 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Elite Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,986

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 05, 2015 03:33AM
Quote
wildert
Quote
ElectroTech
Must be just perspective but it looked to me as if the 2 shafts had different ODs on the second set of splines down from the non-pinion end, where 4th sits.

That's the difference between 16V and 8V on the pinion shaft side of things.

Quote

I am searching for a 16V R&P, would prefer 4.20 if you or anyone else might have.

4.25 is a stock part - but 8V IIRC.
You can mix and match however. 8V 4th fits on 16v input shaft and vice versa.
It is only the pinion shaft that is special.

Stock part on what applications you know of?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
danster
Danny McGee
Professional Moderator
Location: Haggisland UUK
Join Date: 01/04/2013
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 384

Rally Car:
VWs (for my sins)


Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 05, 2015 04:21AM
The 4.25 and earlier 4.17 FDs have been fitted in various vehicles with 020 gearboxes over the years.
EG. Some diesel Golfs and lower powered petrol models.

The later 020 evolution 02K gearbox fitted to various VAG & Skoda cars also has the 4.25 and 4.47 FDs.



Disappointingly not yet a Jackass
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Mega Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 05, 2015 07:07AM
Quote
wildert
Quote
ElectroTech
Must be just perspective but it looked to me as if the 2 shafts had different ODs on the second set of splines down from the non-pinion end, where 4th sits.

That's the difference between 16V and 8V on the pinion shaft side of things.

Quote

I am searching for a 16V R&P, would prefer 4.20 if you or anyone else might have.

4.25 is a stock part - but 8V IIRC.
You can mix and match however. 8V 4th fits on 16v input shaft and vice versa.
It is only the pinion shaft that is special.

Yes exactly, but with Hoche having VWMS gears I was wondering how he even had a choice in which R&P to use, unless he had an 8V and 16V VWMS box but 4th would be way different ratio on them and doubtfull they would be able to mesh properly, and if so I would think they wouldn't have the proper OD to fully engage between the 2 shafts. So it would either not go together because the shafts got splayed apart or the cases would go together but 4th wouldn't be meshed very tight and likely not live very long. That would actually be hard to see since the shafts don't stand perfectly straight up and down until the cases lock them in.
4.25 is srock 8V, 4.20 is VWMS 16V people confuse the 2, one is junkyard available, the other not so much.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
wildert
Brian Klausen
Senior Moderator
Location: Denmark
Join Date: 03/21/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 388

Rally Car:
VW Golf GTi 16V


Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 05, 2015 02:38PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
wildert
4.25 is a stock part - but 8V IIRC.
You can mix and match however. 8V 4th fits on 16v input shaft and vice versa.
It is only the pinion shaft that is special.

Yes exactly, but with Hoche having VWMS gears I was wondering how he even had a choice in which R&P to use, unless he had an 8V and 16V VWMS

Well, that could first of all possibly depend on the exact definition of "having VWMS gears" - mine are sorta VWMS-gears as well - or at least a copy - but only 3rd, 4th and 5th smiling smiley.
I dunno - just stating that it could easily depend.



Brgrds
Brian

Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Mega Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 05, 2015 04:54PM
Quote
wildert
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
wildert
4.25 is a stock part - but 8V IIRC.
You can mix and match however. 8V 4th fits on 16v input shaft and vice versa.
It is only the pinion shaft that is special.

Yes exactly, but with Hoche having VWMS gears I was wondering how he even had a choice in which R&P to use, unless he had an 8V and 16V VWMS

Well, that could first of all possibly depend on the exact definition of "having VWMS gears" - mine are sorta VWMS-gears as well - or at least a copy - but only 3rd, 4th and 5th smiling smiley.
I dunno - just stating that it could easily depend.
Yeah for sure, he said VWMS boxes, if indeed they are there really was only 2 gear sets an 8V and a 16V. Seems likely the Scirocco could have had a 16V.
Just saying it's possible the gears would mesh (somewhat) between the 2 shafts but if it was 16V mixed with 8V (of different ratio) then the base circles of the gear pairs would not be the same, so the teeth may have intertwined but once the case was together and the shafts squared up it is likely that there's either way to much clearance between them and their life will be cut short, otherwise it could have been too tight but one would think the cases would be hard to get lined up on the shafts if not impossible. It's just an observation, if it's matched ratios then the 2 can mix if not then it won't be happy for long.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
hoche
Michel Hoche-Mong
Godlike Moderator
Location: Campbell, CA
Join Date: 02/28/2006
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 1,122

Rally Car:
Golf, Golf, RX-3



Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 08, 2015 11:25PM
So, yeah, apparently I'm a dork and the 4.64 is for a later (16v) box. We're going to use the 4.53 instead. My engine's power band is broad enough that it probably won't make that much of a difference but we'll see.



Self-righteous douche canoe
Please Login or Register to post a reply
wildert
Brian Klausen
Senior Moderator
Location: Denmark
Join Date: 03/21/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 388

Rally Car:
VW Golf GTi 16V


Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 09, 2015 01:51AM
Quote
hoche
So, yeah, apparently I'm a dork and the 4.64 is for a later (16v) box. We're going to use the 4.53 instead. My engine's power band is broad enough that it probably won't make that much of a difference but we'll see.

FD vs. power band is not really all that relevant.

Redline and required top speed vs. FD is very relevant though.

Irregardless, 4.53 vs. 4.64 isn't going to make much of a difference in top speed.
Depending on the actual gear ratios and the redline, it is likely less than 5 mph.



Brgrds
Brian

Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Mega Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 09, 2015 02:10AM
All good, glad you didn't have it put together already!



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Josh Wimpey
Josh Wimpey
Infallible Moderator
Location: VA
Join Date: 12/27/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 642

Rally Car:
Sneak the Golf


Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 09, 2015 10:30AM
Quote
wildert
Irregardless, 4.53 vs. 4.64 isn't going to make much of a difference in top speed.
Depending on the actual gear ratios and the redline, it is likely less than 5 mph.

spinning smiley sticking its tongue out Yes, so long as your top speed is under 205.9mph, the top speed differential will be less than 5 mph between the two final drives.



____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Mega Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 09, 2015 11:15AM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Quote
wildert
Irregardless, 4.53 vs. 4.64 isn't going to make much of a difference in top speed.
Depending on the actual gear ratios and the redline, it is likely less than 5 mph.

spinning smiley sticking its tongue out Yes, so long as your top speed is under 205.9mph, the top speed differential will be less than 5 mph between the two final drives.
LOL, that's one fast rally! It's only about 2mph @ 8500 with a 24.25 (tall for a golf) tire. Ran the numbers for my own build. Gonna be a pretty sweet setup on a VWMS 8V gearset, pretty slow on top end for the 16V setup, I don't actually want to build an 8500RPM motor, would rather spend the money elsewhere.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
hoche
Michel Hoche-Mong
Godlike Moderator
Location: Campbell, CA
Join Date: 02/28/2006
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 1,122

Rally Car:
Golf, Golf, RX-3



Re: VW 020 Close Ratio stuff
July 09, 2015 10:43PM
It's 2.5%. You can apply it however you like. In my case, it ups the top speed of the car from about 102mph to about 105mph. However, that's more or less irrelevant to me, as I can count on my left hand the number of times I've wound it out.

What I mean by my "broad power band" comment is that cornering is limited by car speed, and assuming I'm cornering at the same speed as I would with the 4.64, with the 4.53 the engine will be running 2.5% slower. That means that to achieve the same end-of-straight speed, I'll need to have the engine generating the same average torque across a slightly lower RPM range. I don't think it'll be an issue though.



Self-righteous douche canoe
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login