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Found a needle in the VW Haystack

Posted by ElectroTech 
Pete
Pete Remner
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 11, 2015 05:29AM
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ElectroTech
back before the tall deck it was almost impossible to keep a stroker alive. Likely due to a really shitty rod ratio side loading the crank.

Side loading the crank? Eh? That is what the clutch does.

You're probably thinking of side loading the cylinders. I dont know nothin' about shoving long stroke cranks in 220mm deck blocks, but one thing you have to figure with short rods and long strokes is that you really gotta watch piston to counterweight clearance... so if you have to shave the counterweights to keep the pistons from whacking them at BDC, you can end up with a crank that is technically in balance (hell, an inline four can be technically balanced with no counterweights at all) but has a lot of bending forces across 1&2 and 3&4.



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 11, 2015 07:42AM
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Pete
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ElectroTech
back before the tall deck it was almost impossible to keep a stroker alive. Likely due to a really shitty rod ratio side loading the crank.

Side loading the crank? Eh? That is what the clutch does.

You're probably thinking of side loading the cylinders. I dont know nothin' about shoving long stroke cranks in 220mm deck blocks, but one thing you have to figure with short rods and long strokes is that you really gotta watch piston to counterweight clearance... so if you have to shave the counterweights to keep the pistons from whacking them at BDC, you can end up with a crank that is technically in balance (hell, an inline four can be technically balanced with no counterweights at all) but has a lot of bending forces across 1&2 and 3&4.
Yes side loading, as in the rod is at such an angle in the middle area of downward travel that there is a lot of sideways force on the rod bearings and in turn the mains. With short Pistons that might transfer into issues with the bore but on a VW that's unlikely. Clutch issues are end to end loading, hence the building basics of ensuring there is adequate and also not too much end play on the crank so that we don't push the Babbitt bearings up onto the radius of the crank bearing surface or cock the Pistons sideways in the bore. On 220 decks you had to cut a wee notch for clearance.
Now there's Polaris' newer 800 2-stroke motor, it also has a shitty rod ratio, but it's coupled with a really short piston, they tend to either kill the piston skirts, or crack the bottom of the cylinder itself.



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Pete
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 11, 2015 01:06PM
Rod bearings are always loaded in one axis. The only time you get loading in a different axis is if there is debris in the crankcase pushing things around, and at that point you're looking for a place to pull off the road and maybe get the fire extinguisher out.



Pete Remner
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1978
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 11, 2015 02:31PM
Quote
Pete
Rod bearings are always loaded in one axis. The only time you get loading in a different axis is if there is debris in the crankcase pushing things around, and at that point you're looking for a place to pull off the road and maybe get the fire extinguisher out.

Pete you never told us what the tie rod threads were, what the tie rod dia was or what the inner pivot threads were ya know over on the "Should I reinvent the wheel and put a RX7 rack in the Volvo" thread.

Pluuuuueeeze!



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 11, 2015 02:59PM
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Pete
Rod bearings are always loaded in one axis. The only time you get loading in a different axis is if there is debris in the crankcase pushing things around, and at that point you're looking for a place to pull off the road and maybe get the fire extinguisher out.
Or with too much thrust.
Yes exactly, 1 axis for sure, but with a shitty rod ratio it can put excessive force perpendicular to the crank along the same axis that the rod always travels. More angle more leverage. VW main caps don't do a good job of handling deflection, pretty strong straight up and down, not so much side to side perpendicular to the crank. Maybe a girdle would help, not sure if what's on the market tackles this element since they are mainly built for the turbo guys who don't play with rod ratio.



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ElectroTech
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 11, 2015 07:44PM
Guess that's handled.
Hi zoot 2.0 it is.
Nice price on the full setup too. Diff is a bit spendy.
VWMS 16V FD & Gearset



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ElectroTech
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 11, 2015 08:01PM
Got you 8V guys covered too, they sell piece by piece as well.
Great option for guys to complete their MTS 3/5s with the 2.5/1.79 1st/2nd shaft and driven gears.
VWMS 8V FD & Gearset



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Erik Christiansen
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 12, 2015 02:38PM
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ElectroTech
Got you 8V guys covered too, they sell piece by piece as well.
Great option for guys to complete their MTS 3/5s with the 2.5/1.79 1st/2nd shaft and driven gears.
VWMS 8V FD & Gearset

Wow, great find! Especially with the Euro exchange rate right now.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 15, 2015 07:26PM
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Erik Christiansen
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ElectroTech
Got you 8V guys covered too, they sell piece by piece as well.
Great option for guys to complete their MTS 3/5s with the 2.5/1.79 1st/2nd shaft and driven gears.
VWMS 8V FD & Gearset

Wow, great find! Especially with the Euro exchange rate right now.

Yeah, it's been a bit of a struggle tracking down some things, but hopefully it helps some others out.
Trying to get all the hard bits figured out/ordered early.
Between the gear kit and the shiny new Sooooper Bitchin JVABs I'm thinking that the Minister of War and Finance will likely not allow access to the coffers for a while now, exchange beating me up pretty bad @ USD x 1.34....
Hope to get an ABA block right away, get the 2 cars stripped and sell the Passat for scrap.
Interesting rad fan on the Passat with the one electric fan and a second fan driven off it by a belt.
Bunch of stitch welding and various brackets and other odds and ends to turf before I bring it to be caged (or maybe John can get some sense out of his European source for the pre-fabbed kits).
Will leave the motor mounts for later.



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 16, 2015 08:36AM
Next Step!




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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 16, 2015 11:25AM
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ElectroTech
Next Step!

Amazing isn't it?
And I say every one of those parts must be looked at, thought about, cleaned, lubed carefully assembled.



John Vanlandingham
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 16, 2015 01:20PM
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john vanlandingham
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ElectroTech
Next Step!

Amazing isn't it?
And I say every one of those parts must be looked at, thought about, cleaned, lubed carefully assembled.
Hopefully be able to turf 25% of them too!



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 21, 2015 11:57AM
Wonder if these would work instead of using an adapter plate??
Stub Conversion



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 23, 2015 08:49AM
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ElectroTech
Wonder if these would work instead of using an adapter plate??
Stub Conversion

Those are pretty niffty. They're cheaper then what I sell too. But, there are two downsides to that designs that I see (there are also downsides to my design a well smiling smiley )
1) It looks like a casting, and you have no idea what material they are made out of. *
2) IF you bend a stub axle, you'll have to buy another set. The plates allow you to just bolt on another stub axle from a mk4.

*edited for the fact that I was using a smartphone and the picture sucks. May be a casting, may be a forging. Would not be surprised if it's a casting, as cast spindles are actually a thing on older cars...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2015 05:26PM by Robert Culbertson.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 23, 2015 10:33AM
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Robert Culbertson
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ElectroTech
Wonder if these would work instead of using an adapter plate??
Stub Conversion

Those are pretty niffty. They're cheaper then what I sell too. But, there are two downsides to that designs that I see (there are also downsides to my design a well smiling smiley )
1) It's a casting, and you have no idea what material they are made out of.
2) IF you bend a stub axle, you'll have to buy another set. The plates allow you to just bolt on another stub axle from a mk4.

Here's the piccie:


I cannot begin to imagine how you conclude its a casting from that piccie.

Think again..no sane person would use a casting (of what?) in a design like that..
So....
Forging without a doubt--too silly to think they would whittle away all that material making it out of a hunk of bar..too much chips, too much machine time.
Steve said that since you don't have access to CNC mills anymore you are no longer intending to make those adapters. Seems to me the thing to do might be to pitch the prints back to who championed the idea for 20 years before you visited and we poked at the idea...

The "non-handed" part is I think a good idea and worthwhile to pursue, but these are cheap enough that spares can be procured and stored just in case.



John Vanlandingham
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www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
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