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Found a needle in the VW Haystack

Posted by ElectroTech 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 12:42PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Quote
ElectroTech
MicroSquirt and ITBs it is....Just have to decide if its custom mounted bike throttles or a storebought setup....Thoughts from anyone thats done either?


VWMS managed 220hp with stock bore & stroke geometry and without ITBs using the 52mm runner intake manifold from the ABF 16v.

limk? dyno charts.? sources?

because that conflicts with what the man who for the longest time--thru the 1990s did their rally engine development...

You want his phone number so you can correct him?



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 12:44PM
I'd take that number.....does he speak English, that would be an awesome brain to pick!



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 12:54PM
Not sure why you seem to be unable to google ABF VW Dyno and the old VWMS build manuals with the specs...

Completely bone stock ABF (mine) produced 142 wheel hp for estimate 161 crank hp. Same day dynoed a bone stock 12v VR6 and made exactly 7hp more than the ABF.

Adding mildly lumpier street cams to stock ABF and off-the-shelf "chip tune" only gave less than 10 additional ponies.

Adding moderately ported head, 11.5:1 pistons, bigger cams, different air-box, 100 octane fuel, long-runner 4-into-1 header, and a real ECU that could be tuned gave 189 wheel hp ---- that is approaching 220 crank hp.


Call your buddy, the impossible has been achieved



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2015 12:57PM by Josh Wimpey.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 12:56PM
Seems like someone willing to sacrifice some streetability could run some fancy high-oxygen race fuel, bigger cams, and 13:1 or higher compression and get some more out of it but you are running into intake limitations (throttle body size) at this point already.



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ElectroTech
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 12:57PM
http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?249231-MK3-VWMS-rally-Golfs-the-colourful-era-in-detail



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ElectroTech
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 01:01PM
Like the build but with the 288s of bet you don't need the 100ll fuel, probably needed with the 276 @ 11.5:1 . Lower the octane the better until the knock comes in. Proven time as time again on 2-stroke sleds, less is more. Race fuel is more consistent and pump is a toss up these days, some ethanol some without.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2015 01:46PM by ElectroTech.
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hoche
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 01:28PM
Random points:

A 9A with 11.5:1 and a Techtonics 276 will run just fine on 91 octane.

An ABA with an early 8v CIS head on it and an 288 cam running 14:1 needs about 96.


If you get a 9A out of a Passat make sure it has oil squirters. They don't all have them.


Methanol is mostly fine as long as you keep it flowing through the system. If you let alcohol-infused gas sit for any length of time, all kinds of weird (and bad) things happen. Oh, and try not to use alcohol-laden fuel on really hot days.



Self-righteous douche canoe
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ElectroTech
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 01:50PM
Quote
hoche
Random points:

A 9A with 11.5:1 and a Techtonics 276 will run just fine on 91 octane.

An ABA with an early 8v CIS head on it and an 288 cam running 14:1 needs about 96.


If you get a 9A out of a Passat make sure it has oil squirters. They don't all have them.


Methanol is mostly fine as long as you keep it flowing through the system. If you let alcohol-infused gas sit for any length of time, all kinds of weird (and bad) things happen. Oh, and try not to use alcohol-laden fuel on really hot days.

Sorry I meant so say ethanol, and up here in the great white north they tend to just blend more of it in to call it Plus and Premium.

For mine I am looking for some 12.5:1 and some 288 cams, betting that I wont need race fuel, but if so I have a barrel on hand for my sled at all times. Mix some 109 with lowest grade pump and I'll be fine. Cannot runn 100LL up here in rally, strict no lead policy according to rulebook.



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ronerickson
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 01:50PM
Quote
fliz
Bushore has been running an electric hydraulic pump for a long time. I don't think he's ever had an issue.

I was gifted an electric pump from somebody here. I still need to get it on when I put my car together.

Add my build to the list of cars running an electro-hydro PS pump. Mine is out of a Subaru XT6. That is the second most common choice behind one of the MR2 pumps. The MR2 pumps are much more expensive but include a PWM driven speed controller that can be hodge-podged into a VSS output from your trans (MKIII and forward I believe had a 3-wire VSS output.) Just like you mentioned in another reply, all PS is doing at higher speeds is taking power and turning it into heat. Smart management of PS pump speed means that power goes to the wheels.

Also after nickel-dime-ing the parts list for what I would need to build an ABF clone and looking at the laundry list of custom stuff I did to 6-speed-syncro-swap my car, I called up OrchidEuro and had them snag an ABF out of Europe. I'm in the same boat experience-wise as you are. I've been in the rally family for a while but have yet to ever sit in the left seat. My build is pretty damn custom (for right or wrong) but for my first few events I don't want to worry about engine or horsepower because I'm going to be slow and there's a ton of other shit to break.

I am also a firm believer in the 02A. If you're going to stick 020 at least find a MKIII box with the large input shaft. When I was running a 16vG60 in my street car I blew the input shaft splines off of two boxes and put a hole through the case running 0-car at Rally TN (still finished and drove 8hrs home!)

I am already jealous of the condition of your shell. I spent the first few weeks of my build doing floor pans and other rust repair (thanks, Huebbes!)

Let me know if you need a nice brake maths spreadsheet if you decide to go cash-money-custom with brakes. (Another thanks, Huebbes!)

Oh, and the rear stub axle upgrades go without saying. You'll probably be good for your first few events, but a rear stub break will sneak up on you sooner or later.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 01:52PM
BTW, we do not run 100LL, we run 100-Sunoco which is of course lead-free as all rally fuel has to be



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ElectroTech
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 02:16PM
I don't think you need(ed) to run anywhere near that with 100octane, left some HP on the table.....don't get me wrong it's the best cologne going, love the stuff. For reference I run 14.5:1 in my sled to 8700rom, on 50/50 87 and 109 @ 2000' alt. 2 strokes are a lot more more susceptible to deto and the results are far more catastrophic and immediate.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 02:42PM
Fuck I just love talking motors and hearing "slightly hotter' and "should". and This was XXX at the wheels so that SHOULD be XXX at the crank..

I used to wonder where people find their % for powertrain losses.. now I don't.

I guess numbers don't count, only assertions.

Speaking of which, the number---from 20 years ago---for Gunnar Forssberg was
+46 08 550 65700
EDIT:

FORSSBERGS MASKINSERVICE
[Person verksam i bolaget: <a href='/foretag/forssbergs-maskinservice/personer'>
Carl-Gunnar Harry Forssberg</a>] Carl-Gunnar Harry Forssberg
Orgnr. 450613-XXXX


BADVÄGEN 29
telefon: 08-55011153


I don't know if he speaks English, never asked....He I believe is retired officially now--he was older then so I don't his English is very "fluent"....but his tuning was eloquent..

Just checked a little more---at 69 years seems he's now out in the woods somewhere
at "Ultra motors"
http://www.svartamasken.com/videoklipp.asp?view_clip=258

Ultra Motors AB · Bovallsvägen 1 · 152 42 Södertälje · Tel 08-550 946 55 · Fax 08-550 946 66 info@ultramotors.se

This is too crazy..look here:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/BOVALLSV%C3%84GEN+1,+152+42+S%C3%B6dert%C3%A4lje,+Sweden/@59.2070863,17.6631089,379m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x465f0d4f92e27bbb:0x1b0f5287963187c0

Look just a few meters eastward and you'll see a moto-cross track..
That's Tuvängen, home track for Allmänna Motor Förening or AMF Södertälje...
that's my old home club from 1972 onward...I have spent litterally hundreds and hundreds of hours on that track and it is just a few feet from where Forssberg now is, it seems..
Wanna see a photo of the track I took that was published in the leading US motor+cross magazine?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 02:47PM
Quote
ElectroTech
I don't think you need(ed) to run anywhere near that with 100octane, left some HP on the table.....don't get me wrong it's the best cologne going, love the stuff. For reference I run 14.5:1 in my sled to 8700rom, on 50/50 87 and 109 @ 2000' alt. 2 strokes are a lot more more susceptible to deto and the results are far more catastrophic and immediate.

But just look at the head in the sled....Hemi-squish head, I betcha its real nice radius between the squishy part to the hemi-ish part..
Look at where the piston ends up...They know what they're doing..
.4-stroke OEM things can work that good, but as delivered a lot aren't there--yet.

And that 14.5 to one...whart's you exhaust port event timing?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 02:55PM
Dear lord John, you asked for numbers and dyno plots and you got them so you just have to bitch about something because??? If I posted actual engine dynos with engines mounted up on contraptions, you would find some BS excuse to poo-poo it all.

The dyno that I posted has been a 'heartbreaker' dyno since it was installed in 1998 and has given very consistent results using both stock output numbers from the factory to calibrate the adjustment factors, and by comparing engine dynos with direct crank output measurements compared to real-world installs of the same motor in a chassis.

FWIW, a stock 12v VR6 make 172 hp output at the crank according to both VW and many engine dyno sessions. They typically put out 148-152whp in completely stock form on this dyno and on the same day we ran, one put down 149whp so , that is a pretty good measuring stick.

Good grief, why have you started trolling so much?



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 22, 2015 03:08PM
Exhaust timing is variable, guillotine style exhaust valves.
It does run high port timing.
Cranking compression is actually less than stock, but boy can it sing!
I'd say any VW 16V motor running 288 duration high lift cams and 11.5:1 is no more detonation prone than the stocker at 10.25, likely less so if it fuels on the top unlike the lean stock fueling. I'd bet that Joshes 16V has another 10hp in it or more, try a dyno run with 87. Minimum gain would be throttle response and easier on/off trottle transitions. Race fuel burns cool an is hard to light off. The fuel has no more energy just better resistance to compression ignition.
But alas, dynos cost a lot of money to play around on. Be interesting to see knock sensor data or listen to that motor with a piece of copper tubing. The fastest 4-stroke turbo sleds are 600+ hp and only 1200cc. DynoTech research does tons of independent tuning sessions and he always try's to optimize the blend to stave off deto but have the best burn. Pretty sure experimenting with a low revving VW motor will not cost you an engine, that's why it has a knock sensor, it will retard the timing until deto goes away, but cannot take advantage of the higher octane doesn't have a curve for that.






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