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Found a needle in the VW Haystack

Posted by ElectroTech 
Chris Eyre
Chris Eyre
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 02:37PM
More on the FIA Kitcars. Seat Ibiza in this case, a car which you may not have got in the US. Shortblock version of the ABF, coded ADL.

Note mid-90s date, mentioned earlier. This is debut of that car with ITBs.







Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 02:47PM
Quote
Chris Eyre
Quote
john vanlandingham
First part: It was Why did VW go to ITB---answer BECAUSE it was BETTER for RALLY

Erm - see below. It's solely because the rules changed. Absolute gospel. No forum gossip.


Quote
Chris Eyre
The move to ITBs was a result of the relaxing of FIA Group A rules in the mid-1990s and the creation of Kit variants, found in the 'VO' homologation extensions.

Good grief the rules allowed it. I know.. So they did..because it was better---not just peak...
They were not forced to, they did it for solid reasons.


Same reason EVERYBODY in non-restrictive classes does it if they can afford it..
THAT is the point.....
And now, even for lowly sweaties in OUR classes with the liberties allowed and parts available---anybody can go ITB...and get similar benefits...

Just like we did 20 years ago here...

You put the kit car figures up---you know the kit car is what that photos was--the one with the ITBs...



John Vanlandingham
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 02:56PM
Quote
john vanlandingham

You put the kit car figures up---you know the kit car is what that photos was--the one with the ITBs...

No John, the Kit car with ITBs is 191kw (260hp) with short stroke and big bore as mentioned earlier.



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Chris Eyre
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 03:00PM
If you're looking at ITBs and saying they did it because it's better for rally, you're only looking at the bit everyone could see.

At the same time, the following parts had been shelved and the engine dimensions changed from 82.5 x 92.8 to 84 x 90.

- cast inlet
- cast exhaust
- factory rods (lengthened from 159mm to 160 in the ABF and up from 144mm to 149 in the Ibiza)
- pistons to suit
- valves were 7mm stems in titanium before the end

etc
etc

The two types of Group A and FIA Kit Car VW 16v are not remotely comparable.

It was an arms race, and by the end of it costs were totally out of hand, and Renault & Peugeot won it with over 300bhp.





Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 04:52PM
Quote
Chris Eyre
If you're looking at ITBs and saying they did it because it's better for rally, you're only looking at the bit everyone could see.

At the same time, the following parts had been shelved and the engine dimensions changed from 82.5 x 92.8 to 84 x 90.

- cast inlet
- cast exhaust
- factory rods (lengthened from 159mm to 160 in the ABF and up from 144mm to 149 in the Ibiza)
- pistons to suit
- valves were 7mm stems in titanium before the end

etc
etc

The two types of Group A and FIA Kit Car VW 16v are not remotely comparable.

It was an arms race, and by the end of it costs were totally out of hand, and Renault & Peugeot won it with over 300bhp.

Chris, beginning from bottom to top...
The Froggie bastids won it, ON CLEAN DRY TARMAC at HOME..

from wiki just to remind you"
Quote

Gilles Panizzi caused a major upset when he finished third outright on the all-tarmac Rallye Catalunya in his Peugeot 306 Maxi, defeating all bar two of the World Championship cars. To prove it was not a fluke Panizzi did the same on the Tour de Corse just weeks later with team mate François Delecour finishing fourth. This emphasised a split in W2L car production with the French manufacturers building tarmac specialised cars that could win outright at the cost of making them uncompetitive on gravel events. With several national championships in western Europe running all-tarmac series it became a viable option.

They were often beat by far lesser cars on gravel..
The Sunnys run by M whassis name in Daventry SBD I think were far less powerful--and worked, in Sweden Astras with Per Svan beat 'em..

As several of the guys I keep referencing said at the time..powerband, powerband powerband...and "who is buying your tires?" in other words they're just tearing up tires and no quicker..

1mm from 159 to 160mm c-c, meh (note I just happen to make my rods for the Volvos at 160mm, in this case up from 145 for the early blocks and 152mm for the later blocks.. 160 up from 145 is a substantial dramatic change..1 measly mm? Why bother?

Bore increase to 84mm...interesting---did they go bigger valves?
7mm valves already, 7mm titanium was because the could...Germans do crazy shit for low rev stuff as the Swedes do as well sometimes--Why not 5.5mm stems, that's worth thinking about .



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Chris Eyre
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 05:08PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Chris, beginning from bottom to top...
The Froggie bastids won it, ON CLEAN DRY TARMAC at HOME..

from wiki just to remind you"
Quote

Gilles Panizzi caused a major upset when he finished third outright on the all-tarmac Rallye Catalunya in his Peugeot 306 Maxi, defeating all bar two of the World Championship cars. To prove it was not a fluke Panizzi did the same on the Tour de Corse just weeks later with team mate François Delecour finishing fourth. This emphasised a split in W2L car production with the French manufacturers building tarmac specialised cars that could win outright at the cost of making them uncompetitive on gravel events. With several national championships in western Europe running all-tarmac series it became a viable option.

It's not Panizzi you need to be looking at. It's Bugalski. He won Catalunya and Corsica WRC outright in 1999 in a Citroën Xsara Kit Car.


Quote
john vanlandingham
They were often beat by far lesser cars on gravel..
The Sunnys run by M whassis name in Daventry SBD I think were far less powerful--and worked, in Sweden Astras with Per Svan beat 'em..

They needed dry tarmac to win.

Sunnys were run by Nissan Motorsports Europe out of Didcot, UK. SBG ran the Golfs from Daventry in the UK and beyond, and in the neighbouring unit, different in name only, Cupra Sport ran the UK Ibizas.

Quote
john vanlandingham
As several of the guys I keep referencing said at the time..powerband, powerband powerband...and "who is buying your tires?" in other words they're just tearing up tires and no quicker..

1mm from 159 to 160mm c-c, meh (note I just happen to make my rods for the Volvos at 160mm, in this case up from 145 for the early blocks and 152mm for the later blocks.. 160 up from 145 is a substantial dramatic change..1 measly mm? Why bother?

Ask Lehmann, Mader and Gabord winking smiley

Quote
john vanlandingham
Bore increase to 84mm...interesting---did they go bigger valves?
From recollection it wasn't allowed. Just cut back throats and seats.

Quote
john vanlandingham
7mm valves already, 7mm titanium was because the could...Germans do crazy shit for low rev stuff as the Swedes do as well sometimes--Why not 5.5mm stems, that's worth thinking about .
Sorry, they must be 6mm. They're in my shed, well buried.





Maybe, just maybe, it’s down to the driver.

VWMotorsport.info | SeatSport.info | 4 VW Golf Mk3 A59s exclusively revealed > here <
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ElectroTech
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 23, 2015 07:47PM
Quote
Chris Eyre
Quote
john vanlandingham
Chris, beginning from bottom to top...
The Froggie bastids won it, ON CLEAN DRY TARMAC at HOME..

from wiki just to remind you"
Quote

Gilles Panizzi caused a major upset when he finished third outright on the all-tarmac Rallye Catalunya in his Peugeot 306 Maxi, defeating all bar two of the World Championship cars. To prove it was not a fluke Panizzi did the same on the Tour de Corse just weeks later with team mate François Delecour finishing fourth. This emphasised a split in W2L car production with the French manufacturers building tarmac specialised cars that could win outright at the cost of making them uncompetitive on gravel events. With several national championships in western Europe running all-tarmac series it became a viable option.

It's not Panizzi you need to be looking at. It's Bugalski. He won Catalunya and Corsica WRC outright in 1999 in a Citroën Xsara Kit Car.


Quote
john vanlandingham
They were often beat by far lesser cars on gravel..
The Sunnys run by M whassis name in Daventry SBD I think were far less powerful--and worked, in Sweden Astras with Per Svan beat 'em..

They needed dry tarmac to win.

Sunnys were run by Nissan Motorsports Europe out of Didcot, UK. SBG ran the Golfs from Daventry in the UK and beyond, and in the neighbouring unit, different in name only, Cupra Sport ran the UK Ibizas.

Quote
john vanlandingham
As several of the guys I keep referencing said at the time..powerband, powerband powerband...and "who is buying your tires?" in other words they're just tearing up tires and no quicker..

1mm from 159 to 160mm c-c, meh (note I just happen to make my rods for the Volvos at 160mm, in this case up from 145 for the early blocks and 152mm for the later blocks.. 160 up from 145 is a substantial dramatic change..1 measly mm? Why bother?

Ask Lehmann, Mader and Gabord winking smiley

Quote
john vanlandingham
Bore increase to 84mm...interesting---did they go bigger valves?
From recollection it wasn't allowed. Just cut back throats and seats.

Quote
john vanlandingham
7mm valves already, 7mm titanium was because the could...Germans do crazy shit for low rev stuff as the Swedes do as well sometimes--Why not 5.5mm stems, that's worth thinking about .
Sorry, they must be 6mm. They're in my shed, well buried.

Spendy stuff..... http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/clas/index.php?ct=fsrp&md=details&id=81525
Tons of cool info, love the full spec sheet, keep it coming, more ideas every day!



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 25, 2015 01:32AM
Picked up a set of CBR1100XX throttle bodies on EBay. Chose them because the spacing perfectly matches the 16V head and the throats are large enough to be machined so I can get a nice socket fit and get them welded into a direct to head style.



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 27, 2015 02:24PM
Well my engine build parameters just got locked in to a pretty specific rpm range.......



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 27, 2015 02:28PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Well my engine build parameters just got locked in to a pretty specific rpm range.......

wanna 'splain???



John Vanlandingham
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Remember! Pacific Standard Time
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 27, 2015 03:34PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
ElectroTech
Well my engine build parameters just got locked in to a pretty specific rpm range.......

wanna 'splain???
Soon as I get a tracking number. Pumped



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 27, 2015 03:38PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
ElectroTech
Well my engine build parameters just got locked in to a pretty specific rpm range.......

wanna 'splain???
Soon as I get a tracking number. Pumped

screw the tracking numbers post some number numbers...
No points awarded for being coy, eh?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 27, 2015 03:50PM
http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13_153_275&products_id=837 ish.....



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2015 03:52PM by ElectroTech.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 27, 2015 06:35PM
Now you need a 4th and 5th gear. That is the Burress brother's old trans. I thought it was sold long ago....



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www.quantumrallysport.com

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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
June 27, 2015 06:57PM
That was just the closest thing I could find to represent.



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