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Found a needle in the VW Haystack

Posted by ElectroTech 
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
October 30, 2015 09:03AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Wildis.... I gear my car for about 170 km/hr @ 7150 varv/min
It is 4 speed...I use 62cm Michelin 14-62 x 15---a tire made in heaven....
Final drive is old school 5.43, top is 0,92
Works great in North America...beat most PGT and even PGT (kinda Group N turbo 4wd but is Mistubitchy shells nobody else used--or "stock" Celica All-Trac reigning national champion--not just beat but caught on SS in roughly 7.5 km...that with little V4)

VW water cool is perfectly happy making 7000-7200 rpm

The primary thing I have problems getting guys to understand is that we want the cars to KEEP accelerating all the way to say 105/6 mph which is 170 km/hr..

Any speed above that is less advantage--because it is so seldomly seen----than more 3rd and 4th gear ax.

No point in pissing away 3rd and 4th (and 5th if you have these modern things) ax, it is the decisive thing.

Now Steve is up in Canada and they traditionally have somewhat faster roads.. So maybe top speed closer to 110 mph would be OK..


(wonder what we call "ax" (svensk för acceleration...jag brukar säga ''yank'' which mean a sharp pull++have pity Wildert and help me with what to call AX!)

So rather than keep looking for a shorter R&P I will embrace what I have and build a killer 7000ish RPM stroker motor with parts I already have or are readily (cheaply) available. I currently have a short deck 220mm 2l with 144mm rods, 92.8mm stroke, I also have a TDi crank with 95.5mm stroke, couple that with the (free) ABA tall deck 236mm block and its 159mm rods for roughly 2.1l with a better rod ratio, only added cost would be to lighten the heavy TDi crank and clearance it for the oil squirters. 13:1 Pistons, lumpy cams and ITBs, ABF clone on steroids. Gotta love VWs, tall-block 2.slow 8V block and rods, TDi crankshaft, 16V head all bolt together without to much crazy fanfare.

51mph first gear will be interesting, not that I have to shift that late......




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Paddy1337
Tim Patrick
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
October 30, 2015 02:45PM
gonna end up in first gear a lot it looks like. that, IMO, sucks with synchros
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
October 30, 2015 05:42PM
Quote
Paddy1337
gonna end up in first gear a lot it looks like. that, IMO, sucks with synchros
Not sure.......VW ran a lot of years on this exact gearset, and regardless of FD if you want 105-110mph for a top end 1st is pretty tall. I'd prefer to run well below 8000 and have a lot flatter powerband, if I go with that motor combo I will be able to lug it pretty low.
Hopefully the syncros are beefed up too.



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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
October 30, 2015 07:24PM
Quote
Paddy1337
gonna end up in first gear a lot it looks like. that, IMO, sucks with synchros

Some very very fast people ( in what used to be a big powerhouse in rally) have been known to just leave out the bronze synchro rings "so you can shift with no clutch while Left Food Braking. Just pull that lever---it'll go in"

Imagine my shock when I took the lid off my first real rally box and found no synchro rings...



John Vanlandingham
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Paddy1337
Tim Patrick
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
October 30, 2015 07:37PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
Paddy1337
gonna end up in first gear a lot it looks like. that, IMO, sucks with synchros
Not sure.......VW ran a lot of years on this exact gearset, and regardless of FD if you want 105-110mph for a top end 1st is pretty tall. I'd prefer to run well below 8000 and have a lot flatter powerband, if I go with that motor combo I will be able to lug it pretty low.
Hopefully the syncros are beefed up too.

Either way, your ratios are much better than what I can do on a budget with OEM USDM mitsu shit from my car's era.

They look evenly spaced which should be nice, no huge jumps.

Lastly, I'm not speaking from stage experience- so take anything I say with a big grain of salt winking smiley
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Pete
Pete Remner
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
October 31, 2015 08:08PM
Gear ratios look like 2nd is about the same as a production car 2nd but 1st is taller so actually useful, and 3-4-5 are smooshed together so that they are all useful instead of big drops. I like!

If you wanna see weird ratios, look at the 6 speed box Mazda is putting in the new Miata. 1:1 top gear, 1st gear is 5:1, and they run a sub-3:1 final drive. Probably to get driveshaft speed down or something, or make 6th gear super-efficient.

1st 5.087
2nd 2.991
3rd 2.035
4th 1.594
5th 1.286
6th 1.000
Reverse 4.696
Final Drive 2.866

But I see it and think, hey, remove 1st and 2nd gear, that looks like a really sweet 4-speed box.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2015 08:09PM by Pete.
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Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
October 31, 2015 10:40PM
Quote
Pete

But I see it and think, hey, remove 1st and 2nd gear, that looks like a really sweet 4-speed box.

It's a Mazda box, the gears will remove themselves!
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 05, 2015 06:10PM
Pieces lining up, gearkit delivered and these gems are done!!!




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Erik Christiansen
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 06, 2015 11:18AM
Now that you have the gearset take a look at the pinion shaft and figure out if it's 8v or 16v before you buy a final drive. I wouldn't be surprised it it's 8v.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 06, 2015 11:39AM
Quote
Erik Christiansen
Now that you have the gearset take a look at the pinion shaft and figure out if it's 8v or 16v before you buy a final drive. I wouldn't be surprised it it's 8v.
Hopefully, if so will be 3.94 goin in.
Will look on Tuesday.



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 10, 2015 03:11PM
Quote
Erik Christiansen
Now that you have the gearset take a look at the pinion shaft and figure out if it's 8v or 16v before you buy a final drive. I wouldn't be surprised it it's 8v.
No dice thumbs down, it's 16V, I don't think I'll waste any more time hunting, the only 16V 4.20 I found is in Kenya and is $1500 plus whatever it costs to get it here.



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 10, 2015 04:11PM
Is the diesel 4.25 AVX R&P 8v or 16v splined?



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 10, 2015 04:24PM
8V, same as the 3.94 ACH I have, which would be ideal. If I get a 4.20, no stroker would be needed/desired since I would likely chase 7600ish. Only reason I am looking at the stroker is that it would be pointless to go much past 7000 with the 3.67.
Oh and regarding the crank failures I remembered that is in the short deck height blocks (220mm) not the tall block ABA/ABF mainly, back before the tall deck it was almost impossible to keep a stroker alive. Likely due to a really shitty rod ratio side loading the crank. The rod ratio in a 95.5mm stroked tall block with the 159mm is better than the factory 220mm deck 2.0 92.8 stroke with the 144 rods. Anyhow back framing bulkheads in my basement in prep for drywall.



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 10, 2015 04:28PM
Eurpospec sport has a complete new AGX for sale on Ebay for 995.



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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: Found a needle in the VW Haystack
November 10, 2015 05:28PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Eurpospec sport has a complete new AGX for sale on Ebay for 995.
I am a dealer for Overland/EuroSpec Sport......could do 90x84 if I really wanted, just not much meat in the walls left once you bore it that much. They have an all aluminum 130HP 2.0 from a Passat as well brand new which might be interesting, although not that much weight savings.
8V as well, only 16V FD from factory was the 3.67. My other option is to get an MTS 1.43 4th and then an 8V FD in whatever flavour.
Or I buy a diff and button it up with some new bearings and call it good. Build a somewhat suitable spare out of my remaining 16V trans parts and the ACH that is in the car now.
Bonus on the Gemini kit is that they use a different bearing style that fits the standard retainer that will make the trans a lot easier to take apart quickly if I ever want to change angles or preload.
It's a standard FAG bearing doesn't look custom, I'll post the part number next time I open up the box.
If I'm not mistaken Derek Bottles ran the exact same gearset for many years and seemed to have done quite well so here's to hopin!



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