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VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??

Posted by ElectroTech 
Erik Christiansen
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 17, 2015 08:09PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Anyway here is one set of gears I'm looking at, VWMS stuff, maybe get a small batch run made. Some case clearancing will be required. 16V based.

1st-2.72
2nd-2.06
3rd-1.68
4th-1.43
5th-1.26

What final drive are you going to use, and what redline? These ratios actually drive home the point Josh made earlier. They are SUPER close together.

If you can make them yourself or have them made for you more power to you. I'm skeptical it would cost less and take less time than ordering them from MTS, but I hey I could be wrong.

First and second are the most difficult since they are machined to the input shaft. Are you going to have completely new input shafts machined? Or weld on material and then cut new gears?
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Erik Christiansen
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 17, 2015 08:25PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Glad to see that no one is learning.

Anyway, for what it is worth, a moderate build 2.0L 16v VW motor will make about 80hp at 4000rpm (the approximate rpm you end up at from the 1-2 shift in John's box) and just over 100hp at 4500rpm ( the approximate rpm you end up at from the 1-2 shift in the MTS box). That is a 25% difference in output. Not only that, the overall ratio in John's box for 2nd gear is considerably longer which compounds the 25% motor output difference at that shift & rpm.

The differences continue to be striking in the 2-3 gearchange at 5460rpm vs 5700rpm --- about 10-15hp difference in output between those two rpm levels in a moderate 2.0L 16v build (about 10% output difference in percentage terms). Again, compounded by the taller overall gearing for John's 3rd gear by 10% again.

But you know, John can't operate a spreadsheet and says RPM drops aren't the metric. Plus, he highlighted important numbers in purple so, go ahead and save $250 and enjoy the 3-speed box.

This deserves to be quoted again because Josh explained it perfectly! You can go ahead and build whatever box you want, don't let me stop you. But in my opinion the approximately $250 price difference isn't worth skimping on. That said, I would go with a 4.46 final drive if you're married to those gears. If you can add an 8v VWMS 2.5/1.79 first and second now you're getting somewhere (basically an 8v VWMS gearset).

And please don't accuse Josh of "paper racing." He's one of the fastest mk2 VW drivers in this country (if not the fastest).
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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 17, 2015 08:25PM
Quote
Erik Christiansen
Quote
ElectroTech
Anyway here is one set of gears I'm looking at, VWMS stuff, maybe get a small batch run made. Some case clearancing will be required. 16V based.

1st-2.72
2nd-2.06
3rd-1.68
4th-1.43
5th-1.26

What final drive are you going to use, and what redline? These ratios actually drive home the point Josh made earlier. They are SUPER close together.

If you can make them yourself or have them made for you more power to you. I'm skeptical it would cost less and take less time than ordering them from MTS, but I hey I could be wrong.

First and second are the most difficult since they are machined to the input shaft. Are you going to have completely new input shafts machined? Or weld on material and then cut new gears?

Erik, of course close close ratios 1-5th is ideal but getting them affordably is the question....


And in ANY production environment unit cost is a function of materials (8620 isn't that expensive), the complication of the job---machine time---and series, numbers in one run----I'm betting---and I'm sure all the other people here who have been in manufacturing longer will chime in a nd correct me---that a minimum run of about 20-25 units will be needed to get the unit costs down...
And the target of 440 euros per gear is an easy target to beat.
In a production run they ought to be closer to $60-80/gear for someplace which can do the little synchro-toofie things


you guys understand how simple gears are?

Real figures: I did a run of 10 steel flywheeels to test the set up, and market--sold out in 3 days..and much interest so I geared up and did a deal with 20 pre ordered and i did 13-14 additional.
Total lathe time in the 10-run was about $80/piece
Total lathe time cost in the second run was about $30/piece
Quite the difference, eh?

Patience..



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2015 08:37PM by john vanlandingham.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 17, 2015 08:44PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Not sure why anyone is getting worked up, FFS RPM drops, where's the factor for the car slowing down way more in the first couple of gear changes, didn't know the 020 had the ability to shift instantly or does the spreadsheet show that. What about the fact that 80hp in 2nd is like 400 in 5th, this reeks of paper racing without real world chucked in.

Steve, it isn't just paper racing. I have been running a Golf in competition since the late 1990s and have run essentially the box that John has been telling you to go with (except mine had a much worse 5th gear) since 2003. So, I am giving advice based on lessons I have learned along the way. Here is a brief version of the history:

In the late 1990s real VWMS stuff from Gemini, Drenth and others was more or less available if you had mega dollars and were willing to chase it down overseas. Being a broke college student meant that piecing together the best of the stock ratios and a 4.2 R&P was the only realistic option circa 2002. For differentials, the options were basically Quaife and Peloquin as even the VWMS stuff had largely dried up in the US by then and KAAZ, Gripper, etc were not on the radar. The internet was still pretty basic in terms of sourcing parts from overseas. So, I ran what was available on my budget as did everyone else even though it is total shit compared to a real set of gears (not to even mention dog engagement or sequential stuff).

By the late 00's and a lot of people had begun looking at going to 02A or 02J boxes as more variety of gears & diffs & shifters became available and 020 stuff dried up further. In 2008, I looked long and hard at a variety of new and used gearboxes and the modifications, adaptations, and ancillaries to go along with them and concluded that the only decent options were on the order of $20,000 all-in by the time it was developed, in, and set-up, and working with spares. And I passed on the opportunity to spend someone else's money to cover over half the costs in order to pursue an opportunity to take two brand new late-model cars and develop them from scratch (free cars but limited support $)--an opportunity I ultimately ended up declining as well.

But, in the past 5-6 years, lots of 020 parts have become available including alternative diffs, R&Ps, and gearkits including dog engagement stuff and both bonafide and simulated sequential shifters with and without mechanical assist.

And, just in the past 8 months, the exchange rate has become VERY favorable for purchasing these parts from various places in Europe. So much so that, after careful consideration of what is available from MTS, SQS, Samsonas, Hewland, Sadev, and others I have considered purchasing the 3-4-5 kit for my mothballed 16v. At about $1400 USD, it will be roughly equivalent to my purchase of a 4.2 R&P & used gears to piece together a relatively awful box in 2002. BTW, the 16v is mothballed primarily because of a shattered 4.2 R&P after 35+ events.

On some stages, the ratios probably only cost us a second or less but on uphill stages and especially those with long uphill starts (most stages by nature are uphill starts in mountainous areas because the gravel roads branch off of the main roads that are generally built in the flattest areas), it costs us several seconds per stage. We have lots of in-car video on youtubz you can go watch the horrific 1-2 and 2-3 uphill shifts and watch the car actually lose speed when shifted to 5th gear even on flat terrain all of which is tremendously frustrating when you know there is someone in front of you with twice the horsepower and twice the driven wheels by less than 20 seconds after 100+ miles of racing.

Point is, the $1400 option is by far the best bang for the buck that has been available in at least 15 years even if you have a 50%+ subsidy. Frankly, I am jealous that this stuff is finally available and for so cheap but only now that I have largely retired the gas car. And, I am surely jealous that this stuff wasn't available when I was building my first car and pinching the pennies. If the TDI powerplant ever has a hiccup, I will surely toss the 16v back in the car with the MTS 3-4-5 and give chase...



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Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2015 09:00PM by Josh Wimpey.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 17, 2015 08:54PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
In a production run they ought to be closer to $60-80/gear for someplace which can do the little synchro-toofie things


you guys understand how simple gears are?

Real figures: I did a run of 10 steel flywheeels to test the set up, and market--sold out in 3 days..and much interest so I geared up and did a deal with 20 pre ordered and i did 13-14 additional.
Total lathe time in the 10-run was about $80/piece
Total lathe time cost in the second run was about $30/piece
Quite the difference, eh?

Patience..

So, back to the paper racing I see.

John, I will send you $1200 tomorrow if you can deliver a complete set of gears for an 020 in the 16v VWMS ratios by Christmas 2015.... $1400 with a R&P to match... That is 3-times the $80 per gear price so hopefully you can make some money off of me.

IF you really can match that price and timeline, you should have no problem taking pre-orders and selling out a production run by the end of the month. And, I will throw in a $500 bonus on top if you deliver on time and simply paint my cardboard box of goodies Kawasaki green.



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ElectroTech
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 17, 2015 09:20PM
Thanks for the awesome response Josh!
I am actually looking at possibly doing both the standard VWMS gearsets 8V and 16V, likely have to be a run of 20, so it may be one or the other since nobody is going to tool up for one or 2 of.
This is not nearly unobtanium in 2015, I wouldn't even have to send the stuff to the manufacturer. A nice 5D scanner head can get them what they need.
These companies do not build junk, not in their interest.
Every bit the US has gained we have lost up here and my roots make me cheap as possible, I will not cut corners though.
I'd bet you can order that EBay R&P and never have a problem.
Someone took the risk with MTS, why not try these guys.

As for what I'm going to run, I just bought a 92 Passat 16V and I'll pillage what I can from there.

Likely stick with factory fuel and spark, high comp, big hydraulic cams, springs/lifters to suit and at a minimum port match and blend everything best I can.

In the shop at work (camp) right now ripping apart this 2Y to see what's left as I found some schrapnel. Spending more time mucking around adapting and building tools since I have nothing here.

Have a good night!

And remember boys what goes around is all around.....



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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ElectroTech
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 18, 2015 12:30AM
Have to love when a so called "VW Shop" works on something so simple as an 020. Selector cover inverted 27mm nut was cracked, assholes put green loctite on the 5th retainer bolt, the shrapnel was a 5th gear sync key smashed then the piece de resistance the goddamn bearing plate retainer bolts are completely rounded off, so I guess ill dig further for the Queef diff tomorrow.....




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ElectroTech
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 18, 2015 08:24AM
"Hi Steve,
You will receive the corresponding offer next Monday.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Kind regards"



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2015 05:57PM by ElectroTech.
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wildert
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 28, 2015 04:26PM
I see you are discussing "my" transmission vividly smiling smiley.

First of all: The RPM is CRUCIAL for the calculations and evaluation of correct ratio.
Josh has tried to explain this several times, the spreadsheet (mine) lets you see the difference.

Even with different FD's, the same gearset does NOT work equally well with a 6500 rpm redline engine, and a 8000 rpm redline engine.

The gearset is all about keeping the engine "on cam" (as the youngsters might say smiling smiley) - or basically: making sure that you don't get too low power when shifting.

The higher the rpm you shift at, the bigger the drop will be. I.e. with the same set, shifting at 6000 rpm might drop you to 4000 rpm, and shifting at 7500 might drop you to 5100 rpm.
So 2000 and 2400 rpm drops respectively - same gearset, different shiftpoint.

Obviously 5100 will likely be better than 4000 if all else was equal, but the 7500 shift point is there for a reason: it is a built motor - more rpm for more hp.
For N/A engines this normally equals more peaky engines, and in that case, the 2000 vs. 2400 is more interesting than the overall speed.

The FD is ONLY for setting the top speed - and keep it low - real low - no hurt in bouncing of the limiter a couple of times pr. stage if it means you are quicker in all the other areas.
But the FD is for that only.

Obviously, when picking and matching, and doing low budget stuff, you need to work with what you got. That was why I tried to match my setup for a stock FD - which I succeeded with.

And as Eric has experienced, it works REALLY well for an engine that is a bit peaky - and obviously for the money it is.
VWMS purpose built stuff will be even better - better 1st most of all, to get rid of that nasty 1-2 drop in rpm that you have with the stock stuff. But it is also a lot more money.

I have had a stock 2Y with a 4.64 FD - and let me tell you, it is no match for the 3.94 with the 3rd, 4th and 5th from MTS.

I have one regret though: I should have gone with the 4.25 FD. I have no need for the top speed that the 3.94 gives me, and the 4.25 is a stock FD as well, so cheap.
That still doesn't change the difference the 3rd, 4th and 5th makes though...

So to reiterate:
The RPM ARE very important - and they need to be relevant for the engine that YOU have (or plan on building).
Speed is relevant as well obviously, since you don't want to waste the multiplication on +200 kph top speeds - but it doesn't say a lot about how well suited the gear set is for a particular motor.

I don't have the RPM on the graph for my spreadsheet, as I fail to see the relevance. This is racing - I am interested in what happens when shifting at my shiftpoint - not somewhere in mid range.
Speed @ 3000 rpm does not matter the slightest.



Brgrds
Brian

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ElectroTech
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 29, 2015 12:40AM
So I am getting pricing on full gearsets 1-5 including the shafts (gotta love integral gears).
The manufacturer is saying absolute minimum of 8 sets for tool up coverage, with economy of scale obviously playing a large part. So I have asked for pricing on 8 sets and 20 sets. I am not sure there is enough people running 020 to warrant multiple runs of different sets. Final drives would follow the same MOQ of 8.

We get into these discussions and it is awesome, many differing opinions lead to many different variations that are all within a few percent of each other. We talk in relative average terms, since every stage is different its splitting hairs to call a choice correct since it will always be a compromise in some situations. Think of all the out and back stages, might be a hill climb where closer is best and then you turn around and skip gears on the way down.

These pics show the stock (most common) 8V and the 2Y 16V 020 both compared to the 16V VWMS setup. 8V shifting way low (who runs down here??) @6500 and opposite end of pretty much the drivability wall of 8000 (anyone run above 8K?) on the 16V.









Looking at the numbers in this simplest possible way and comparing to stock I would say that with some minor tweaking perhaps to 5th mainly that anyone running a stock gear set would love the VWMS setup be it a 1.8 8V with a $120 cam or a 220hp 16V running 8000 RPM.

I realize it's pretty tight for an 8V, but most guys graduate little by little, and will wind up over 7K. Regardless it would be really fun and forgiving to drive.

Sure we can get 3 one offs from MTS (no offence here it's just obvious they need your gears and 2 weeks to make them) at $1400USD (is this landed stateside freight over and back and everything included? Seems low.) or we can get it for close to that including the 1-2 plus the shafts (still waiting on a final number). Anyone who thinks it can't be done should ask MTS for their best price on 20 5th gears, factor in shipping to the cost and it would likely be 30% less if not more.

So if there's any interest in this we can discuss a little further some tweaks and once I get pricing I will start a new thread with a group buy and likely put it on any other likely forum to garner more interest.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2015 12:48AM by ElectroTech.
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ElectroTech
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 30, 2015 09:18AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Oh and "Tran-x" gears makes a good clutch plate LSD cheaper than Gripper by a coupla hundred bucks..

Most guys picking the lowest angle and highest preload?



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
July 07, 2015 10:37AM
The US Dollar is once again rising vs. the Euro and the Pound so buy while the buying is good.



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ElectroTech
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
July 07, 2015 01:02PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
The US Dollar is once again rising vs. the Euro and the Pound so buy while the buying is good.
Sigh....must be nice, our Canadian Peso is faltering! Good for selling though, get to keep my job!



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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
July 07, 2015 01:03PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
Josh Wimpey
The US Dollar is once again rising vs. the Euro and the Pound so buy while the buying is good.
Sigh....must be nice, our Canadian Peso is faltering! Good for selling though, get to keep my job!

Thanks Harper!



John Vanlandingham
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CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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