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VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??

Posted by ElectroTech 
Josh Wimpey
Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 11:15AM
Quote
john vanlandingham

Looks like you just need 4th, 5th and final...and a diff.

Or keep your 3.94 final and get the MTS 3, 4, & 5 and a diff. <--- You end up with a better box with closer ratios and a useable 1st gear for the same or less money.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 11:53AM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Quote
john vanlandingham

Looks like you just need 4th, 5th and final...and a diff.

Or keep your 3.94 final and get the MTS 3, 4, & 5 and a diff. <--- You end up with a better box with closer ratios and a useable 1st gear for the same or less money.

Come on, mang!

Choose a MTS 3rd, 4th, and 5th from the ones they offer and put it in the format like above for direct comparison....

For 30 years guys do what you just did, a lotta guys need comparisons to see side by side what KNOWN GOOD is then the options...I know I do (that's why I did it)

I could do it--just did, and I don't even have a Golf...


And i know the 1st isn't so hot---but I want cars to STAY quick up to whatever you dare..higher up quickness..so compromised for shorter up top.

Show us whatchoo mean, OK?



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 12:11PM
Sure thing John. Wildert already did all the work for us and even made a graphical depiction....

Quote
wildert
.........

It was a fairly decent box for the budget, but having to open it up, I wanted an upgrade while I was in there.
First of all the 4.64 meant that 1st was just about useless and second, the 16V was becoming a bit cammy, so the ~2900 rpm drop from 1st to 2nd, and the ~2400 rpm ditto from 2nd to 3rd, was not too funny. Obviously the drops in the higher gears are not really all that good either, but still better since that is how it goes.
Third, the topspeed @7500 rpm in 5th was something like 195 kph (just under 120 mph or so) - much too high for what we need. Even the S2000's do around 170 kph on their tall gearing with almost double the power we have.

I looked into different gearsets, but for 020's you'll mainly see 6 speed sets which I couldn't use due to class rules, and/or dog-based sets which I didn't want due to price of parts, maintenance, etc. Also: it was honestly a bit too much mony for me smiling smiley.

For 02A's you get much more to chose from, but since I am on 020 now, I would need a new donor box + a new diff + the gearset. That would be even more expensive, though a real good solution both in the future and now (one of the guys from my club has one from SQS - awesome...).

I did manage to come by MTS Motorsport (www.mts-motorsport.com - NOT .de) in Germany. They produce a range of different solutions for 020, 02A, 02J and other brands. For 020 they do new 3rd, 4th and 5th in a range of ratios - and this became interesting.
With the use of a 3,92 FD from a diesel box (that you can actually buy from MTS as well), that has the tall 1st same as the GTI "CR"-boxes (close ratio - yeah right), and the tall 2nd from those as well, and carefully choosing 3rd, 4th and 5th from their range, I was able to come up with a transmission that has ratios very close to MTS' own dog set, and SQS' synchro set for 02A. Only difference in ratio is that 1st is low for a motorsport box, but it is still taller than 1st in my old 4.64 FD box, so still an improvement for me.

I still have the 2900 rpm drop from 1st to 2nd obviously, but from there the numbers are: 1557, 1473 and 1000.

I made a chart to compare (it assumes 7500 rpm redline and it is in kph).


The replacement gears are wider, and with bigger "teeth", so an improvement in strength as well, though obviously not in 1st and 2nd.

Obviously there is always something better out there, but it gave me ratios close-to-true motorsport CR gear set, for around a third of the price (the replacement gears - on an exchange-for-stock-basis are 350€ a piece).
Obviously there are other benefits to the real deal, but since I haven't had issues with the 020 holding up to the power, I consider it a good compromise.



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 12:14PM
And, the updated version in MPH from that same thread:


Quote
wildert
[
I don't remember exactly the parts numbers I got, and I'm too lazy to look them up. But the selection is here: http://www.mts-motorsport.com/epages/61752271.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61752271/Categories/Getriebetechnik/Gangpaare/%22VW%20020%20/%2002K%20Getriebe%22

Note - 4th comes in two varieties, depending on whether it is a "16V" box (24 mm. inputshaft) or regular box. MTS produces 4th gears for both.

Sure. I changed the speed to mph for you guys.
What I got is the orange line.
Stock 16V box is the yellow line.
My previous config - 2Y w. 4.64 FD is the blue line.
And the grey line is just for reference a full motorsport gearset from MTS as well. Dog engagement and all. It actually matches one of SQS' sets quite good.



Lastly I fiddled the spreadsheet a bit, so you can download it here:
http://files.lbrt.dk/Transmissions-US.xlsx

The change from kph to mph and general translation was real quick, so please report any errors.



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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 01:06PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey

Or keep your 3.94 final and get the MTS 3, 4, & 5 and a diff. <--- You end up with a better box with closer ratios and a useable 1st gear for the same or less money.

Maybe let's wait a bit for Erik C. to chime in since he just ran that combo at Idaho last weekend.



Self-righteous douche canoe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2015 01:07PM by hoche.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 01:33PM
Quote
hoche
Maybe let's wait a bit for Erik C. to chime in since he just ran that combo at Idaho last weekend.

Erik Christiansen
June 13 at 6:52pm ·
Great first day at Rally Idaho! We finished the day fourth in CRS-2 and seventh in 2wd. But we took 3 minutes off our time from last year! The new transmission is awesome, and we're having a lot of fun!



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ElectroTech
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 02:04PM
Wonder how much better it might have been with a lower R&P and proper 1-2.
Guy needs options in complete, affordable so as to negate the need to compromise as Eric did.
If we all could there would be perfectly spaced 1-5 and a FD to match the RPM that we want to run.

Say a guy gets a smoking deal on a wicked built bored and stroked ABA that makes tons down low at say 6500 max but then the next guy has a crazy 1.6 that runs 8500, but only makes power from 6500, shouldn't have to compromise.

More to come, waiting on an email....



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 02:14PM
Steve, I am not sure of your question...

How much better might what have been?
--A lower R&P wouldn't work with those 3, 4 & 5 ratios as top speeds would be less than 100mph

The solution I am suggesting has only 1 bad rpm drop for the 1-2 shift and otherwise has great gearing including a useable 1st gear.

The lower R&P solution leaves you with at best, an OK 4-speed box with 2 bad rpm drops

Short of a full gearkit, the 3,4,5 solution offers the best ratios. And, it is cheaper than the solution involving lower R&P

Regarding your last bit about different motors needing different gearing ---- Yup. So, what motor are YOU building or planning to run?



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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 02:20PM
but which gears???

So many options!

What does it all MEAN?

And while its a pretty an tasefully colorful chart, kinda missing rpm on the bottom..
Hence the request for some standardised format---like the format I used..
Numbers are good sometimes---like RATIOS.

And of course saying "Happy with" is all good-n-stuff, compared to what previously?
Everything is a comparison...

better alone is meaningless.."Better than the _________________ I was using before" means something



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2015 02:34PM by john vanlandingham.
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ElectroTech
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 02:27PM
Was referring to Erik's 3 minute time trimming due in part to a better set of gears, if he could have had an ideal 1-2 to go with the 3-4-5 and R&P that gave him the right top speed there's potential to move up a couple places.

Just gleaning from the hundreds of threads about how it's a continual compromise of budget and availability. We are over a barrel so to speak, really only need 1 gearset, and maybe 4 R&P combos to cover most any motor/tire combo.



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 03:14PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
but which gears???

So many options!

What does it all MEAN?

And while its a pretty an tasefully colorful chart, kinda missing rpm on the bottom..
Hence the request for some standardised format---like the format I used..
Numbers are good sometimes---like RATIOS.


The chart is output form the linked excel sheet. You can play with it...

http://files.lbrt.dk/Transmissions-US.xlsx



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Josh Wimpey
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 03:19PM
Was referring to Erik's 3 minute time trimming due in part to a better set of gears, if he could have had an ideal 1-2 to go with the 3-4-5 and R&P that gave him the right top speed there's potential to move up a couple places.[/quote]

I am sure others will chime in here but the 1-2 shift happens, on average, 1-time per stage unless you have a spin or an off. It is very unusual to use 1st gear on US stages for anything other than coming away from the starter clock.

Quote
ElectroTech
Just gleaning from the hundreds of threads about how it's a continual compromise of budget and availability. We are over a barrel so to speak, really only need 1 gearset, and maybe 4 R&P combos to cover most any motor/tire combo.

The motor that revs to 6000 vs 8500 RPM will require different gearsets as the gearset determines the rpm drop between shifts as a % of the rpm at which the shift is made. The R&P has nothing to do with this rpm drop. Anyway, how many motor packages do you plan to develop for your rally car?



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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 05:52PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Quote
john vanlandingham
but which gears???

So many options!

What does it all MEAN?

And while its a pretty an tasefully colorful chart, kinda missing rpm on the bottom..
Hence the request for some standardised format---like the format I used..
Numbers are good sometimes---like RATIOS.


The chart is output form the linked excel sheet. You can play with it...

http://files.lbrt.dk/Transmissions-US.xlsx

Sorry, doooood but I looked at the pretty chart---doesn't tell me a signle thing I'm interested in---or have been asking...
You're doubtless a lot smarter than I am so I like things simple
like:
Gear.......................final drive..................overall ratio
I) .....2.29......................5.1..........................11.68
II) ....1.55......................5.1.............................7.9
III)....1.16......................5.1.............................5.9
IV)....1,0........................5.1.............................5.1
V).....0.86......................5.1.............................4.37

fuck all that rpm shit..
And gotta ask--diameter in the chart 57.6cm---
Oh really? Wot da fuq tire on gravel is 57.6cm? a 175/70 x 13?

So in THAT format ^ above, which of the 5 available 3rd gears are you suggesting?
Which of the 5 available 4th gears?
Which of the 5 available 5th gears?

Seems simple enough question, no need for strange charts.



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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 07:12PM
John, open the spreadsheet and scroll left.....
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ElectroTech
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Re: VW 020 4.25 Ring & Pinion source??
June 16, 2015 07:56PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Was referring to Erik's 3 minute time trimming due in part to a better set of gears, if he could have had an ideal 1-2 to go with the 3-4-5 and R&P that gave him the right top speed there's potential to move up a couple places.

I am sure others will chime in here but the 1-2 shift happens, on average, 1-time per stage unless you have a spin or an off. It is very unusual to use 1st gear on US stages for anything other than coming away from the starter clock.

Quote
ElectroTech
Just gleaning from the hundreds of threads about how it's a continual compromise of budget and availability. We are over a barrel so to speak, really only need 1 gearset, and maybe 4 R&P combos to cover most any motor/tire combo.

The motor that revs to 6000 vs 8500 RPM will require different gearsets as the gearset determines the rpm drop between shifts as a % of the rpm at which the shift is made. The R&P has nothing to do with this rpm drop. Anyway, how many motor packages do you plan to develop for your rally car?[/quote]

So I am talking directly with a gear manufacturer about a small run of gear sets.
Yes technically different max rpms make a potentially huge difference but not in this case specifically.

Being realistic about these motors would have at most a 2000RPM window high to low end of the spectrum and with most of the upper ratios running around 1 the overall effect of changing the peak rpm is not that large at all.

Here is a really good and well thought out gear calculator that has a lot more going on than a standard spreadsheet.

Gear Calculator

I'm hoping to hear back tomorrow regarding gears soon but as with all this stuff volume is the best overall reduction in cost. They do carry some ratios but of course its mostly for stock rebuilders.

Hoping that a 5-gear set plus the R&P will be sensibly affordable, with hopefully some shelf stock to allow more customization because ordering 2 of or 3 of will likely be no better than going to MTS and paying 100 euro more for one gear on their page than the next.

Thinking a one pallet, one flat rate to ship it. Will see what they come up with.



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