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Rx7 Steering rack swap... into a volvo

Posted by Eric Ewert 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Rx7 Steering rack swap... into a volvo
November 08, 2015 09:27PM
Quote
alkun
I usually try to keep an open mind but this is a silly waste of time. I have the quickener in my volvo and it works perfectly. I think monkeying around with steering racks is a bad idea; if any of the mounting brackets, cobbled together tie rods or steering shaft has a problem you could get seriously fucked. Racks from 240 are plentiful, practically free and work just fine with a quickener, why make your life more difficult?



There. I said it.

I agree, but must say the mounting is so simple it would be hard to mess up. The tie rods no problem: use 240. Just a question of overall length..
Colemen small quickener is cheap, under $125 and I guess that mucking around with its spline size etc is fool prooff. I guess cause i've suppled a number of them being a Coleman dealer and all but I din't do the installs..But never heard the guys who got them complain so i guess its easy...

Lotta putzing around for sumpin that is not a problem.

Hey Al! How many events you do before you got them quickener?

Did the stock rack result in you dying?
Hows the afterlife?
Didya have a nice chat with any of my friends up there?



John Vanlandingham
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Re: Rx7 Steering rack swap... into a volvo
November 08, 2015 11:02PM
Old Shoshone saying, modify the part, not the car.
Sounds like quickener means you can yoss any stock rack, subframe, tie rods or uprights as replacements.
All other options require multiple part modifications. Seems no brainer to me.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Saab 96 V4



Re: Rx7 Steering rack swap... into a volvo
November 08, 2015 11:34PM
Quote
NoCoast
Old Shoshone saying, modify the part, not the car.
Sounds like quickener means you can yoss any stock rack, subframe, tie rods or uprights as replacements.
All other options require multiple part modifications. Seems no brainer to me.

Ironic post is ironic.

"multiple"

You even work on cars Grant?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Rx7 Steering rack swap... into a volvo
November 09, 2015 01:39PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
NoCoast
Old Shoshone saying, modify the part, not the car.
Sounds like quickener means you can yoss any stock rack, subframe, tie rods or uprights as replacements.
All other options require multiple part modifications. Seems no brainer to me.
You even work on cars Grant?

Yes. Just the other day we modified a JVAB part on some suspension with a used top mount that was like 6" diameter going into a <4" diameter shock tower that required machining and finding appropriate studs and hardware. We will probably be modifying the mounting ears eventually since Sonic's don't have adjustable camber and there are no camber adjustment provisions on the parts. I'm sure we'll still have to tell the customer to find or we will source for him some helper springs since JVAB coilovers never have them but every set I've encountered needed them. There was also the custom bolt in top mount for the rear shocks we built as they mounting provisions were drastically different between the JVAB and stock style. We did reinforce the top of the front strut tower with some plating. If he destroys a shock on any corner at a rally he's not sidelined due to custom everything as stock suspension can still bolt back into the car because we modified the part not the car. And I'm sure you could find a Sonic strut at the Rolla, MO auto parts store.



Grant Hughes
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Rx7 Steering rack swap... into a volvo
November 09, 2015 02:24PM
Quote
NoCoast
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
NoCoast
Old Shoshone saying, modify the part, not the car.
Sounds like quickener means you can yoss any stock rack, subframe, tie rods or uprights as replacements.
All other options require multiple part modifications. Seems no brainer to me.
You even work on cars Grant?

Yes. Just the other day we modified a JVAB part on some suspension with a used top mount that was like 6" diameter going into a <4" diameter shock tower that required machining and finding appropriate studs and hardware. We will probably be modifying the mounting ears eventually since Sonic's don't have adjustable camber and there are no camber adjustment provisions on the parts. I'm sure we'll still have to tell the customer to find or we will source for him some helper springs since JVAB coilovers never have them but every set I've encountered needed them. There was also the custom bolt in top mount for the rear shocks we built as they mounting provisions were drastically different between the JVAB and stock style. We did reinforce the top of the front strut tower with some plating. If he destroys a shock on any corner at a rally he's not sidelined due to custom everything as stock suspension can still bolt back into the car because we modified the part not the car. And I'm sure you could find a Sonic strut at the Rolla, MO auto parts store.

Everything you described was discussed thoroughly with him..And I don't know where you get the idea which sounds like some mantra "Mod the part, not the car".
Mod what is needed to make replacement of the more likely to be damaged part easier

Mod the strut towers once--adding a flat plate in this case instead of the whacked strut tower thing there and then--until he destroys the car, and must reshell---mounting and dismounting is easier..

Same in the rear...Mod the inner wheelarach one time, and then a replacement shock

THE SPARE CARRIED WITH IN THE SERVICE RIG derpidty derp goes straight in....

The absurd statement "I'm sure you could find a Sonic strut at the Rolla, MO auto parts store."
is ultra-lame, Grant.. Shows poor thinking..
Do you think some auto store is going to have ANY rally modded part? Proflex reservoirs?
Reinforced lower control arms for anything? Replacement spherical bearings for any top mounts?
Subarau top mounts stock?

Ridiculous reasoning...You plan. Acquire known good spares. Mark them clearly, store them, have hardware attached....
As a proffesional preparation shop you tell the customer what is needed--ad part of that is telling them what makes most sense. and getting spares.

Just what the fuck do you think anybody is going to do with a stock strut on one side should one fail?

Oh yeah---did you notiuce that a larger diameter can be made into a smaller diameter is just a few seconds? Much harder to make small diameters bigger..
And did you notice that one could--very easily off set the bolt holes to in one operation, add some castor and set the camber for the longer struts.?

Did you plan that far ahead?
Did you choose some easy bolt circle with thoughts top access to the mounting nuts

And if you are supposed to be a real shop, what is this with "we have to find appropriate mounting hardware and studs" or whatever?
You walk to your bin over by the wall full of M8 bolts sorted by length and nylocs and good thing washers and and grab what you need. And that's it.
Shirley you have bins with all the common sizes used on cars, dont you?
Nothing is more common than a simple M8...What's your problem?
You complained bitterly when I sent bells and discs for the Xratty---I though you were a car car who was in or around real prep and fabricating shops...which means there should be hardware.

Cause if you don't understand these kinds of things, you can get advice from people that do...



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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Grant Hughes
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Re: Rx7 Steering rack swap... into a volvo
November 09, 2015 03:44PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Mod the strut towers once--adding a flat plate in this case instead of the whacked strut tower thing there and then--until he destroys the car, and must reshell---mounting and dismounting is easier..

Same in the rear...Mod the inner wheelarach one time, and then a replacement shock

Did you look at the car much during the week or two he left it at your place?
Front strut tower is almost never wide enough for the top mount you sent. Modifying an entire strut tower sounds like a great recipe for completely fucking up the handling. We are a small privateer shop, not M-Sport.
Rear ones are different side to side thanks to the fuel filler on the passenger side. Sure, we could have cut out the tower and welded in a new one or we could build a bolt in mount that leaves all that stock. Of course, he does have that same little single shear problem that is SO DETRIMENTAL on the BMWs on the lower mount.

Quote
JVAB
THE SPARE CARRIED WITH IN THE SERVICE RIG derpidty derp goes straight in....

The absurd statement "I'm sure you could find a Sonic strut at the Rolla, MO auto parts store."
is ultra-lame, Grant.. Shows poor thinking..

Ridiculous reasoning...You plan. Acquire known good spares. Mark them clearly, store them, have hardware attached....
Just what the fuck do you think anybody is going to do with a stock strut on one side should one fail?
How many spares do your customers buy? Why don't you sell suspension in sets of six from the get go? Because we are all privateers on tight budgets.
I will tell you what they will do, as I have done it. They will finish the rally. Sure the final MTC might be packing up by the time they make it there, but they will finish and the award party is always more fun when you finish than when you spent the second day spectating.

Quote
JVAB
And if you are supposed to be a real shop, what is this with "we have to find appropriate mounting hardware and studs" or whatever?
You walk to your bin over by the wall full of M8 bolts sorted by length and nylocs and good thing washers and and grab what you need. And that's it.

We do have a bins of common hardware. We don't have knurled or threaded studs or Subaru lower non-camber strut bolts sitting around, but they were easy enough to source.



Grant Hughes
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Rx7 Steering rack swap... into a volvo
November 09, 2015 07:09PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Mod the strut towers once--adding a flat plate in this case instead of the whacked strut tower thing there and then--until he destroys the car, and must reshell---mounting and dismounting is easier..

Same in the rear...Mod the inner wheelarach one time, and then a replacement shock

Quote

Did you look at the car much during the week or two he left it at your place?

Yes, of course.

Quote

Front strut tower is almost never wide enough for the top mount you sent.

God i knew you'd be whining..and the dreaded "too many cooks" thing would result in something like this.. Sigh.
Grant it was sent large so that the Pro shop doing the prep could hack the top bump off, weld a plate for reinforcing, and scoot the center over for more caster and camber.. IE a simple bolt circle but bolt circle not centered on the center of the bearing but scooted over.. and then the excess or the corners of the mount sawed off and beautified. Do you really not see how easy this is?
Really?


Quote

Modifying an entire strut tower sounds like a great recipe for completely fucking up the handling. We are a small privateer shop, not M-Sport.

I know what you wish to be, but you are billing yourself as a journeyman level fabricator and charge as one...--zapping a top of a tower over an existing one does not sound very difficult---just a little annoying access on the back side of that tower.

Have YOU looked at the car any at all? And spoken with Cory?

And wild exaggeration like you tend to with the "Modifying an entire strut tower sounds like a great recipe for completely fucking up the handling" when doubling the top or at most raising the top sounds like I dunno..Like some women I've known (working on a car outside a woman comes out of a building and says she's scared. I ask why "I dun't know. But maybe something might happen!" that's what it sounds like.



Quote

Rear ones are different side to side thanks to the fuel filler on the passenger side. Sure, we could have cut out the tower and welded in a new one or we could build a bolt in mount that leaves all that stock. Of course, he does have that same little single shear problem that is SO DETRIMENTAL on the BMWs on the lower mount.

God damn.. elongated D bent 90 and zapped on and the end is supported.. Or a [ like a Golf.
You even prep, bro? Cause steel is not iron..You don't get that...the ones shearing are iron.

Quote
JVAB
THE SPARE CARRIED WITH IN THE SERVICE RIG derpidty derp goes straight in....

The absurd statement "I'm sure you could find a Sonic strut at the Rolla, MO auto parts store."
is ultra-lame, Grant.. Shows poor thinking..

Ridiculous reasoning...You plan. Acquire known good spares. Mark them clearly, store them, have hardware attached....
Just what the fuck do you think anybody is going to do with a stock strut on one side should one fail?

Quote

How many spares do your customers buy? Why don't you sell suspension in sets of six from the get go? Because we are all privateers on tight budgets.

A few smarter people have bought spares. But most are being fucked so hard for all the other stuff like $3500 cages that they don't have a lot of money left--after their house payments and all their new cars and vacations to Hawaii or Mexico...

And they see the same no spares mentality with the Rich Guys---no spare turbos etc so they don't regardless of whatever warning I give.
I'm not responsible for their bad choices.

Quote

I will tell you what they will do, as I have done it. They will finish the rally. Sure the final MTC might be packing up by the time they make it there, but they will finish and the award party is always more fun when you finish than when you spent the second day spectating.

Quote
JVAB
And if you are supposed to be a real shop, what is this with "we have to find appropriate mounting hardware and studs" or whatever?
You walk to your bin over by the wall full of M8 bolts sorted by length and nylocs and good thing washers and and grab what you need. And that's it.

Quote

We do have a bins of common hardware. We don't have knurled

Knurled!!!!???KNURLED!!! Oh my fawking god...
Knurled.. you need some serious education.. Nobody with any sense trusts a knurled pressed in anything for anything serious.. Not in aluminum and not in thin steel without a little love-zap..You saying you don't zap press in studs?

Quote

or threaded studs

For fucks sake Grant you are really showing how little you know....and sorry Grant but its scary.

Drill correct size, tap with M8 tap, grab a clean new bolt, (it could be a allen, a flange bolt, stainless, whatever is at least DIN 8.8 and has something you might get at with a socket one day---one day if it comes loose and spins--which you cant reach with a round headed press in stud, and is a pain with an allen...) , a dab of Loctite 262--which don't tell me you don't have a fambly sized bottle on the shelf-- torque the bolt in..
Problem solved.. Fuck me Grant...

Quote

or Subaru lower non-camber strut bolts sitting around,
Was intended he use his OEM bolts--which seem awfully stuck in..



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Rx7 Steering rack swap... into a volvo
November 10, 2015 02:08PM
John, you've been preaching the same shit for years. Few have the time, resources, or funds to put in custom towers on any car. In the last 10 years I can think of three cars that followed your advice. I can't think of any that have seen stage time yet.
Had you removed all the crap covering up the top of the strut towers you would have seen that the towers are tight, narrow and strong. Triple skinned in fact. The lower bolts can't be reused without modifying the part since they were splined with a little knurly bit on the end that pressed into the stock strut. We could have drilled the strut out and reused those but using a Subaru one makes sense, especially from a spares standpoint.

Nobody, NOBODY trusts knurled studs. Except BMW, Rover, Subaru, and probably just about a thousand others. We didn't use knurled studs but it was a potential solution. Because when you have 20 minutes to swap a strut the last fucking thing you want to do is have to stop and go find a second wrench and extension to reach up into the mud caked strut tower to tighten down the back side of that bolt that just worked itself out. You'd know this had you serviced at a rally in the last 30 years.

We charge very high labor rates for any mechanical work. A rallyist should be able to do regular mechanic work and our pricing reflects that. We are booked with cage work into February or so right now, longer if we take on small fab projects. We charge very low rates for fabrication of rally specific things like skid plates, roll cages, and seat mounting solutions. Our shop has contributed to ten completely new rallyists hitting the stages in the past few years. We put money into the shop EVERY month to keep the doors open. We are hopeful that by 2017 or 2018 we will be self sustaining, maybe even making enough for one person to work it nearly full time. All our work is done during free time away from regular jobs, so that's time we don't spend with wives and kids in order to try to revive the sport in this region. We are working on a new stage rally for 2016 to keep the momentum going.

John. Your suspension is decent but the headaches of fitting them, modifying them, and dealing with you is not worth it for most. My Subaru customers are flocking to Feal or even Hotbits after talking with my other customers that have bought from you and are unhappy. Scott even keeps his mouth closed about having to borrow rally suspension for the event three months after he sent you his stuff and waiting another year after before finally getting his back.



Grant Hughes
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Denver, CO
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