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Affordable DIY ITBs

Posted by ElectroTech 
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Affordable DIY ITBs
November 07, 2015 10:15PM
Take a look, very nice compact design with sealed bearings, cheap if you don't mind doing a bit of work yourself.
RHD ITBs



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
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1992 Golf


Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 07, 2015 10:24PM





Power means nothing if you cannot control it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2015 10:27PM by ElectroTech.
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Pete
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Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 09, 2015 05:22AM
That is still kinda expensive.

I measured a set of Toyota Avalon V6 throttle bodies, also at 90mm centers, and you can get them with TPS and cable attachment, and either way you have to do fiddling and you don't get an easy way to mount injectors.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2015 05:24AM by Pete.
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 09, 2015 10:09AM
This subject was already beaten to death with John & I & the librarian in chief over at clubGTI. Not sure why anyone would choose to go this route on a build not funded by others... It also doesn't match your TDI crank idea which will have far far lower revs than the VWMS setup with shortened stroke and larger bore that utilized ITBs on the Lehman engines.

Stop mixing metaphors.
Budget != ITBs
TDI crank + ITBs != smart match (low revs & high revs)
Reliable != ITBs
Gemini Gearkit and 4.2 R&P != enough top speed for US stages
Gemini Gearkit != reliable or serviceable can't even get parts not custom made

Same advice I gave before. Call Orchid Euro and buy a complete ABF with manifolds, harness, and ECU for $1500 delivered to your door. Change the oil. If you really must, de-pin the ECU connector and re-pin your favorite stand-alone ECU connector using the factory ABF harness and plug it in and tune it up with some big cams and race fuel.



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alkun
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Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 09, 2015 07:05PM
whoa whoa whoa!

suggesting a reasonable, efficient, straightforward plan for your build? this is rally anarchy, Josh.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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1992 Golf


Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 09, 2015 10:41PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
This subject was already beaten to death with John & I & the librarian in chief over at clubGTI. Not sure why anyone would choose to go this route on a build not funded by others... It also doesn't match your TDI crank idea which will have far far lower revs than the VWMS setup with shortened stroke and larger bore that utilized ITBs on the Lehman engines.

Stop mixing metaphors.
Budget != ITBs
TDI crank + ITBs != smart match (low revs & high revs)
Reliable != ITBs
Gemini Gearkit and 4.2 R&P != enough top speed for US stages
Gemini Gearkit != reliable or serviceable can't even get parts not custom made

Same advice I gave before. Call Orchid Euro and buy a complete ABF with manifolds, harness, and ECU for $1500 delivered to your door. Change the oil. If you really must, de-pin the ECU connector and re-pin your favorite stand-alone ECU connector using the factory ABF harness and plug it in and tune it up with some big cams and race fuel.
Point #1-Mine cost under $200
Point #2 Says who? ITBs offer benefits at all RPM, with proper intake runner length the power band can be shifted.
Point #3 Says who? ITBs come on many things like snowmobiles and SxSs that see a hundred times the abuse that a rally car will ever survive.
Point #4 Quick or fast, if you want to gear your 200hp like a 350hp car that's fine, they will walk away from you.
Point #5 WTf there's a dozen posts on here of you advocating stupid expensive custom MTS gears, which would be direct fit spares if I ever need them.......what does your comment even mean, all your talk in posts a year ago about the availability of options for the 020 are moot points? Maybe you should have snapped up the $495 deal in Boston but hey, spend your $1400 on 3/5ths of a gearbox it's a free continent.
Point #6 What do any of your points have to do with my post about ITBs, if people want them why would it matter to you? Why didn't you post those comments in my build thread instead of muddying up another one?



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Pete
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Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 09, 2015 11:34PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Point #1-Mine cost under $200

Per unit (which ain't enough for four cylinders), plus TPS, plus linkage, plus intake manifold, plus some sort of air cleaner solution (No foam air socks. Those kill power to a scandalous degree!). You're still looking at $1000+.

And - dirty secret - ITBs do not confer more power. They usually make less power than a properly tuned plenum manifold. What they do offer is good drivability at lower throttles when a huge happy cam is used, cuts reversion down nicely when the intake tract deadends 5" from the valve. No big cam = no benefits.

What you would be far better off doing is taking his advice, and if you wanted to get fancy, take the manifold and get the plenum volume opened up a bit more.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
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1992 Golf


Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 10, 2015 12:09AM
Quote
Pete
Quote
ElectroTech
Point #1-Mine cost under $200

Per unit (which ain't enough for four cylinders), plus TPS, plus linkage, plus intake manifold, plus some sort of air cleaner solution (No foam air socks. Those kill power to a scandalous degree!). You're still looking at $1000+.

And - dirty secret - ITBs do not confer more power. They usually make less power than a properly tuned plenum manifold. What they do offer is good drivability at lower throttles when a huge happy cam is used, cuts reversion down nicely when the intake tract deadends 5" from the valve. No big cam = no benefits.

What you would be far better off doing is taking his advice, and if you wanted to get fancy, take the manifold and get the plenum volume opened up a bit more.
Yeah.....never said I was buying these, just happened across them, best option for someone wanting to swap to EFI from DCOE patterned carbs.
His advice has been given, noted and even thought about, but, I am building my car, not Josh's. He certainly would not be driving a diesel if he listened to everyone else and looked at all the other competitors out there worldwide, but he has built a cool car and seems to like it. Talk about added complexity though, worried about a couple of throttle blades extra on my build but he has a turbo, injection pump, inter cooler, all the super dee duper robust piping, clamps boots etc that are trouble on daily drivers. I'll avoid posting any other cool stuff I come across, Tha Rally AntiArchists will have no part of some "noob" posting things that might interest someone else. Wish I could put a lake racer 1200cc 2-stroke triple under the hood with its super unreliable individual carbs and its 280 unreliable HP but I don't have the budget, just a rust free car, a bunch of near free parts and a brand new VWMS gearset that I didn't have to pay bend over the barrel prices for. Imagine all I did was browse the internet looking for parts instead of ammo to prove people "wrong", hooked it right out from under someone's nose and they seem to be in a little tiff over it.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 10, 2015 12:58AM
Quote
Pete
Quote
ElectroTech
Point #1-Mine cost under $200

Per unit (which ain't enough for four cylinders), plus TPS, plus linkage, plus intake manifold, plus some sort of air cleaner solution (No foam air socks. Those kill power to a scandalous degree!). You're still looking at $1000+.

And - dirty secret - ITBs do not confer more power. They usually make less power than a properly tuned plenum manifold. What they do offer is good drivability at lower throttles when a huge happy cam is used, cuts reversion down nicely when the intake tract deadends 5" from the valve. No big cam = no benefits.

What you would be far better off doing is taking his advice, and if you wanted to get fancy, take the manifold and get the plenum volume opened up a bit more.

Pete one all but a few Homologation specials runner volume or cross section is just like a restrictor on a turbo... Sorry. I's spose you could say "dey doan make a power---but they allow the motor to make power--over stock sized manifold which were made the size they were made to get the port velocity up for nice driveability at near stock power levels."

Sure in a theoretical world a properly sized runner and plenum would be nice, but in real world there's just a handful of motors that were equipped intentionally with runner sizing to allow a 2,0 to make 217-220hp

Regardless of what some guys on the intra-web who have read some claim from their misreadings..
I learned a lot when we built a 2,0 16v Saab n.a. thing I was told clearly and concisely that runner size meant the 2,0 16v Saab would choke airflow at what gives 175 hp. And he said "this goes for Volvo and VW as well. So if you want 215 (the target) you have to go to ITBs or Webers"



John Vanlandingham
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 10, 2015 11:04AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
And he said "this goes for Volvo and VW as well. So if you want 215 (the target) you have to go to ITBs or Webers"

That is if you want a bolt-on performance. A properly sized plenum and runners can make make more power "under the curve" and peak (it's all a trade off though). Variable plenum and runner geometry really helps spread the power around too, but that's beyond most people here.

Helmholtz resonators are a great starting point for looking at plenum volume: http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Helmholtz.html
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Josh Wimpey
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Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 10, 2015 02:22PM
Steve, I am not trying to kill your dream, just giving you some advice. I certainly don't have all the answers but i do have some experience that is relevant to your build.

I already built a 16v ABF Golf and a TDI Golf. Both are ready to race and both are tons of fun and designed to be as low cost and low maintenance as possible while giving tremendous performance. I have already demonstrated that the stock ABF intake manifold can support over 200 crank hp and is certainly the cheapest and easiest and most reliable way to get there.

If you want to pretend that everything is new under the sun, then go ahead and build a stroker motor with knife-edged crank that eats bearings every other event. Buy and customize some ITBs from the source of your choosing and enjoy the constant cleaning and maintenance required to keep it all working smoothly between events. Hell, you should probably solder your own megasquirt board for an ECU. And, by all means gear your car for a top speed of 95mph so you can get there quick --- weird that John gives conflicting advice on this by constantly bemoaning the necessity of crazy final drives and simultaneously warning of the very high-speed nature of the typical north american rally. And convince yourself that the Gemini parts you have are compatible with other manufacturers too. Or, gear for 115mph top speed but 50+mph in first. That will work out great.

You will have saved so much money by the time you are done building a fast car that lasts that you can go straight into rally retirement.



____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
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1992 Golf


Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 10, 2015 03:09PM
Quote
Josh Wimpey
Steve, I am not trying to kill your dream, just giving you some advice. I certainly don't have all the answers but i do have some experience that is relevant to your build.

I already built a 16v ABF Golf and a TDI Golf. Both are ready to race and both are tons of fun and designed to be as low cost and low maintenance as possible while giving tremendous performance. I have already demonstrated that the stock ABF intake manifold can support over 200 crank hp and is certainly the cheapest and easiest and most reliable way to get there.

If you want to pretend that everything is new under the sun, then go ahead and build a stroker motor with knife-edged crank that eats bearings every other event. Buy and customize some ITBs from the source of your choosing and enjoy the constant cleaning and maintenance required to keep it all working smoothly between events. Hell, you should probably solder your own megasquirt board for an ECU. And, by all means gear your car for a top speed of 95mph so you can get there quick --- weird that John gives conflicting advice on this by constantly bemoaning the necessity of crazy final drives and simultaneously warning of the very high-speed nature of the typical north american rally. And convince yourself that the Gemini parts you have are compatible with other manufacturers too. Or, gear for 115mph top speed but 50+mph in first. That will work out great.

You will have saved so much money by the time you are done building a fast car that lasts that you can go straight into rally retirement.
Just confirmed my Gemini gear kit outside of the obvious first and second gears is completely compatible with stock, which of course was already well known since Buress was running a mixed gearset on the Gemini backbone. Mine is 16V 4th so limits the FD anyways, so likely to stay stock 3.67.
The 50/11whatever served VW well for a lot of years.
Microsquirt is the plan, no soldering and a fully potted waterproof box.
Orchid is not stocking nor actively importing ABF lumps anymore, called him after the first time you advised that route, as it is a good idea. I could get him to import one for me, but it would cost around $700 to get it to my door, and the exchange rate is killer, $1550 is a good deal in USD, that's $2050, plus $700, likely north of $3k by the time it's in my hands and all the various organizations take their cut. Even the 50mm manifolds are pretty pricey these days, a few years back there was lots of them for sale. ABF clone isn't hard to build anyways, all I'll be buying is Pistons/gaskets/cams. As for the crank, I'll dig in, but there are some that have lasted, you are actually the first I've ever heard of say that, but due diligence drives my to find out.



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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Affordable DIY ITBs
November 10, 2015 03:16PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
Quote
john vanlandingham
And he said "this goes for Volvo and VW as well. So if you want 215 (the target) you have to go to ITBs or Webers"

That is if you want a bolt-on performance. A properly sized plenum and runners can make make more power "under the curve" and peak (it's all a trade off though). Variable plenum and runner geometry really helps spread the power around too, but that's beyond most people here.

Helmholtz resonators are a great starting point for looking at plenum volume: http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Helmholtz.html


That is if you want a bolt-on performance on a real car that actually runs and was proven to work good enough to beat every other 2wd car in a US national season.....

and often for years afterwards...

Its a great example of the motto --which has worked well everywhere its applied---
"A Good plan today, violently executed, is better than a perfect plan tomorrow"



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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