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Diagnosing and repairing motor problem

Posted by Morten 
Richard Miller
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Re: Diagnosing and repairing motor problem
February 16, 2006 04:55PM
Put 12V directly to the starter. Be sure it is in neutral. Even jack it up so the rear wheels are off the ground. Use jumper cables. Connect the negative to the engine block. Take the positive and carefully and quickly touch it to the big terminal connector on the back of the starter. In fact, it is probably safer to clip it to the starter first, then get out from under that car and connect it to the positive terminal of the battery. If the engine turns over, you have determined that you have an problem in the wiring. If all you get is a big spark, the engine is siezed.



RichardM
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Jens
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Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 16, 2006 11:04PM
Morten,

In all the silliness I've lost track of the various threads, but somewhere you mentioned a 3 foot breaker bar or tube or something. There is no need for that. You can do a lot of damage with something that big.

Also you mentioned pulling the radiator. You shouldn't have to do that either.

Try this....

1. Pull the plugs.

2. Take the transmission out of gear.

3. Turn the front pulley bolt with a wrench.
3a. If for some reason you can't get to the front pulley bolt try the alternator pulley bolt, or power steering pulley bolt (if it has power steering). It is a little difficult to describe, but... While you are turning the alternator pulley bolt/nut put finger/hand pressure on the slack side of the belt. Unless you're dealing with some gigantic V8 like a Mercedes etc you should be able to rather easily turn the engine. (Watch out to be sure you won't jam your fingers that are on the belt into something if the belt turns).

I don't know anything about your engine/car, but...

If it is a mechanical problem here are *some* possibilities:
Engine problem.
Clutch problem.
Transmission problem.

There are too many possibilities to list, but here are a few that come to mind (I've seen them all.. and more).
Clutch bolts hitting back of engine block.
Clutch disk stuck to pressure plate and flywheel.
Clutch stuck AND transmission jammed.
Starter pinion jammed into ring gear teeth.
Valves hitting pistons.
Timing chain tensioner brokent and chain jammed.
Transmission input shaft jammed in pilot bearing.
Lost parts dropped into carburetor, passing throttle plates, and landing between valve and valve seat.....
etc, etc, etc. The list is frickin' endless.

The bottom line of all this is: Don't try a 3 foot bar. If the plugs are removed and you can't turn it over with a foot long wrench there a problem somewhere.

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Morten
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 11:59AM
One of the first things I did was to pull the pugs and try to turn the motor with a 10" cresent wrench (the elec. fan doesn't allow clearance for a socket), with the car in neutral... I can't turn the crank.

I've pulled the valve cover, the timing belt is still there and appears okay (by shining a flashlight down into the motor and following it, visually).

I haven't had the air cleaners off the carbs, so no chance of anything being dropped into the intakes. The spark plugs aren't banged up, and by looking through the spark plug holes with a flashlight, from what I can see of the pistons they look okay.

Electrical system is 12.6V, I haven't charged it since last summer.

12.6V at battary, starter, and altenator.
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Jens
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 01:01PM
I'm editing in the next 2 paragraphs, because I read a few more posts in this thread....

>>>>>
You wrote the battery hasn't been charged since last summer (8 or 9 months is a long time for a battery to sit) [JVL wrote that the battery wouldn't hold a charge when he had the car]. [JVL also wrote that the engine doesn't have a ground strap. This is a bad thing]. Depending on several issues a fully charged battery might overcome a missing ground strap that a partially discharge battery cannot.

Without the proper tools to test the battery (not just a voltage check, but load testing etc), the simplest thing to do would be detach the battery and attach the battery from your daily driver. If it cranks, then you know the rally car battery is discharged or faulty. If it doesn't crank, then you know the battery isn't the problem. It is a starter circuit wiring etc, or a mechanical issue.
<<<<<




Does the engine turn AT ALL? (a couple millimeters clockwise or counter clockwise).

I don't know squat about Colts, but with the plugs out I would think you should be able to turn the engine unless something is stuck or broken. If you haven't done so already ask JVL or someone who knows these engines if they expect you should be able to turn over the engine easily with the plugs out.

Quickly scanning some of the other posts I noticed someone mentioned undoing belts. Have you done that? It sounds like you might not have enough room to put some force on the wrench. If so, then a seized alternator might keep you from being able to turn the wrench on the engine front pulley (it's a long shot, but worth a check).

Did the engine stop on you, or was it running well when you parked it? Did it have good oil pressure? Is the oil level on the dipstick correct now?


(Like I wrote above I haven't read all the posts, so maybe this has already been covered. If so, then never mind).





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2006 01:27PM by Jens.
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Morten
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 01:20PM
Jens just to update :

Motor :

Mitsubishi 2.6L (presumably from a Mazdog truck)
2.0L Crank
Forged pistons
2393CC
Modified head
Downdraft 48mm IDF's
Big ass custom 1 off header

I haven't taken the belts off.

It was running, then the oil pres. acted erratically (bouncing needle), I pulled over and checked the oil and the engine compartment. It seems fine, there was still oil on the dipstick (above minimum line, but low).

Turned the motor over, it started easily, and I decided to head for home. The motor stalled while I was driving downhill (I had been driving up to a local ski hill in Vancouver, nice view and decent road). I bum started it and shortly afterwards stalled again. Coasted to an area I could pull off. Checked motor again, tried to start but motor didn't fire. Tried to bum start unsucessfully. Had it towed home. Wouldn't crank.

Trouble shooting began.
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Jens
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 01:40PM
Morten Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I have updated my prior post (check it).

> Motor :
>
> Mitsubishi 2.6L (presumably from a Mazdog truck)
> 2.0L Crank
> Forged pistons
> 2393CC
> Modified head
> Downdraft 48mm IDF's
> Big ass custom 1 off header

None of the above should have any effect on how easy the engine is to crank with the plugs removed.




> It was running, then the oil pres. acted
> erratically (bouncing needle),

Possible issue, but could be a red herring too. Senders and electrical gauges can fail. Mechanical gauges can get air in line. Worth keeping in mind, but not a place to start diagnosis.


> Turned the motor over, it started easily, and I
> decided to head for home. The motor stalled while
> I was driving downhill (I had been driving up to a
> local ski hill in Vancouver, nice view and decent
> road). I bum started it and shortly afterwards
> stalled again. Coasted to an area I could pull
> off. Checked motor again, tried to start but motor
> didn't fire. Tried to bum start unsucessfully. Had
> it towed home. Wouldn't crank.

Not encouraging information, but still.... just throw in a good, working battery to make sure the battery isn't the issue. It is a quick elimination of the simplest issue.


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john vanlandingham
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 01:42PM
Jens, JVL said it DIDN'T when it arrived here (after being in the "care" of a "famous NW "World Class" shop).

A LARGE gauge battery lead or Euro style flat braided ground WAS added.
I think I screwed Morten like $2.59 for that.
The motor seemed to want a lot of ignition advance and did crank funny, like maybe the strarter wasn't too happy, or there was big electrical resistance, it ALWAYS cranked like eeeeEEErrr---uhn, ....eeeerrr uhn.....errrrrrr Vraooomm.
Not like za-za-za-za-za-zaVroooom.




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Jens
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 01:54PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jens, JVL said it DIDN'T ..... A LARGE gauge battery lead or Euro style flat
> braided ground WAS added.


Oh... okay.... Morten there IS a ground strap. Nevermind.

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Morten
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 02:01PM
The hard starting starting issue was solved last summer.

I took the starter out and it was cleaned, checked, etc at the same time I replaced the altenator. Then the timing was "de-advanced", and it's been starting easily ever since. A couple of pumps of the gas after the elec fuel pump is flicked on, one crank and Vrooom. (when I was cranking it after it had stalled, I tried the secondary/spare fuel pump and it still didn't fire)

I'll try changing the battary but I don't understand the logic of it since... Yesterday I hooked up a 110V battary charger, set it to start, and the combined voltage was 15.36V and it still wouldn't crank.

Jens you wouldn't lead me on a wild goose chase would you ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2006 02:04PM by Morten.
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Skye
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 02:12PM
Voltage isn't all that's needed to crank, the starter needs lots of amps. Voltage is how badly the electrons want to get from here to there - Amps are how many of the electrons are passing by.

You said you tried to bump start it one last time before you had it towed home. Did the wheels lock up or did the engine turn over? If it turned over, then the engine is not seized.

Just get a piece of wood and put it a foot in front of the car, put the car in 3rd, put a piece of tape on the crank pulley, and rock/push the car a foot, even less, see if the tape moves. Surely you've got room for that...





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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2006 02:14PM by Skye.
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Jens
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 02:12PM
Morten Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The hard starting starting issue was solved last
> summer.

At the moment I don't care if it starts or not. All I care about is if it turns over with the plugs removed.


> I'll try changing the battary but I don't
> understand the logic of it since... Yesterday I
> hooked up a 110V battary charger, set it to start,
> and the combined voltage was 15.36V and it still
> wouldn't crank.

If you wrote it was a 100 **AMP** battery charger I might be impressed. If it is a 10 **AMP** charger that means almost nothing. A quick look at my 25 year old charger shows 70 AMP with 420 AMP boost. It's on wheels and will crank a battleship. Newer shop chargers probably do more.


> Jens you wouldn't lead me on a wild goose chase
> would you ?

I would love to just for fun, but no I'm not messing with you.

Swapping out the battery for a **KNOWN** good battery is a quick (5 minutes?) check. If you prefer to do something else, then go for it.

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Richard Miller
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 02:14PM
Of course Jens would send you on a wild goose chase just like all of us. :-) But so far it sounds like you've been getting good advice. See my method above for eliminating all electrical problems by jumping straight to the starter motor. But thinking it over, I remember you saying that when you try to start it, you here a click of the start solenoid and the voltage at the battery drops. Assuming you can here the Bendix drive engaging the flywheel, this is an indication something is stopping the engine from rotating.



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Jens
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 02:25PM
Richard Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> See my method above for eliminating all electrical
> problems by jumping straight to the starter motor.


I thought about mentioning this procedure to Morten, but.... sparks, beginners, gasoline, and battery hydrogen together make me nervous.

I've seen batteries explode. Not pretty.

In a previous post Morten said he doesn't have anyone to help him, so I'd rather keep him safe... for the time being.

If Morten doesn't get this damn car fixed soon maybe I'll enjoy watching him blow up :-)





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2006 02:30PM by Jens.
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Morten
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 02:25PM
I backed off the altenator, and I can easily turn the alternator and waterpump by hand. Still can't budge the crank with a wrench.

It felt like the tires locked when I tried to bum start it the last time.

Skye it's easier for me to roll back because of the slope of the floor. Can I do this in reverse gear and still push the car ? That is after I put tape on the pulley.

Jen's I'll try and swap out the battary.

Is this possible (worst case scenario).

That the motor spun a bearing, but wouldn't fire as i tried to crank it. Then after it sat for a while the spun bearing fused to the block ?

Might be a stupid question, because when I could cranked it, it wasn't even firing.
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Morten
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Re: Morton...DON'T USE A 3 FOOT BAR!
February 17, 2006 02:32PM
If my cables will reach from the back of the car (it's as close as I can get with my truck), I'll can try this.

My battary for the Colt is in the trunk and I can easily get to the starter motor through the hood.

Or

Could I just disconnect the cables off the battary in Colt and then connect them to the battary in my truck via jumper cables ? My truck battary is too big to fit in the area where my battary for the Colt is.
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