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T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....

Posted by Gravity Fed 
Gravity Fed
Alex Staidle
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1978 Mazda Rx7



T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 03:13PM
so the Mazda input shaft at the pilot bearing is 0.591" (15.011 mm) but the ford T5 is 0.669" (16.99 mm). Should I assume I need to take apart the transmission, remove the input shaft and lathe the diameter to the Mazda size? I see no other way of making this work at this point.

I doubt i can sand off 2mm off the diameter of the shaft to make it work.



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Pete
Pete Remner
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 04:09PM
The good news is you don't need to take the trans apart. There is a cutout in the synchro spline teeth so all you have to to is remove the front bearing retainer and rotate it around until it just pulls out.

That's the only good news.

I had mine cut down. The machinist (my employer) cursed me out for giving him some hardened steel to cut, it should have been done on a grinder but by then it was too late. He ended up undercutting the hardening to get it to size.

I hemmed and hawed and tried hardening it myself with a torch and some oil. Not quite sure I did it right, a file doesn't slide off like it does on the Mazda input I have for comparison but it doesn't bite in either. Might contact a FOAF gunsmithing guy who might give me some clue.

Your other option is to extract all of the internals and replace them with GM bits, which do have the right pilot. I say "all" because there is no GM input with the same tooth count as the Ford V8 input (one is 23 one is 24 and I forget which is which). Of course, GM parts are even harder to find than Ford parts at this point. Might not be the case for you out here, but you know what it's like here. Worn out spun out junk is $800, and people will pay it, and most people have automatics anyway since they make a much better drag racing platform.

The parts are all still sitting on the shelf. I did just sign a lease on garage space so maybe I can work on the RX-7 again this year.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2016 04:12PM by Pete.
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Gravity Fed
Alex Staidle
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 04:11PM
geh i hate this car



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john vanlandingham
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 04:33PM
Quote
Gravity Fed
geh i hate this car

Quit sniveling. Turn it down to 15..install. Right inserts and it cuts marvvy and finish is like ground and its fine
Next



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Pete
Pete Remner
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 06:19PM
Paranoia about unhardened steel against needle bearings equaling galling, especially since that bearing can see in excess of 10,000rpm shaft speed.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.
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Eric Ewert
Eric Ewert
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 07:00PM
Or find a pilot bearing with appropriate id/od? Thats whats done when putting one of these in a volvo.

Edit: just looked up rx7 pilot bearing and I can see why that's probably not an option without machining for a larger OD pilot bearing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2016 07:19PM by Eric Ewert.
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Pete
Pete Remner
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 09:10PM
Yeah, Kennedy gives you apparently a cast iron pilot bushing. Yuck.

The Ford pilot is only slightly smaller in OD than the Mazda pilot bearing's OD so there isn't much room.

Plus personally I would like to minimize the amount of parts that need to be sourced from weird places. Kennedy apparently doesn't sell the bushing separately (not that I'd want to use it) and if I have to do engine swapping then I'd have to source another pilot bushing, cut the bearing out of the next engine, then pop in the bushing and hope I got it in straight and not warped. And it would also negate the ability to put a Mazda trans back in without an equal amount of PITA.

Cut the pilot, can put the trans in NOW. If I get another trans ready to swap in, I can either go with Chevy T5 internals in a Ford case, or get another Ford input cut down, or hope that breaking the trans doesn't hurt the input so I could just yank it out and throw it into the next one, it's only four bolts to change with the trans on the ground.

Another advantage of cutting the pilot is that it means the T5 is now that much easier to bolt behind one of them $1000 Ecoboost 2-liters since the pilot is the same as Mazda (since it kind of is Mazda). Rotary parts are getting rarer and dearer, Ford is putting the Ecoboost in damned near everything and most of them are mommymobile SUVs and the only ones actually breaking are Focus STs with bad tunes, so the supply is big and getting bigger.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2016 09:17PM by Pete.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 10:01PM
Quote
Pete
Paranoia about unhardened steel against needle bearings equaling galling, especially since that bearing can see in excess of 10,000rpm shaft speed.

Pete, whats the relative speed difference tween the crank and shaft when the clutch is clutching-----like it is 99.8% of the time?
And what is the speed difference for that few millliseconds that it takes to shift? It was spinning around at 10,000 as a unit, the you shift 2nd to 3rd and the revs drop to what in a Maz-dog 2400? or 3400...and the crank is going that rpm and the saft is going??

And...are we trying to make something last 300,000 miles?
Don't think so..

numbahs!



John Vanlandingham
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Pete
Pete Remner
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 10:48PM
Realistically the most I ever see right now is about a 6000rpm difference, hitting the 2-step before taking off, but after the beefy rearend goes in I might want to try grippy tires and launching at 9500+ at the dragstrip, because i probably am leaving a half second on the table by trying to pedal out on shit tires to keep the drivetrain alive...



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.
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Gravity Fed
Alex Staidle
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1978 Mazda Rx7



Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 28, 2016 11:05PM
i could case harden with BaCO3, NaCO3, and CaCO3 and graphite.



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Michel Hoche-Mong
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 29, 2016 03:08PM
So what I'm hearing is that Alex is going to get a bunch of Ford T-5 input shafts, have them turned down, reharden them, and then sell them at a slight markup to other people who're trying to mate T-5's to 13b's?



Self-righteous douche canoe
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Ascona73
Bob Legere
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 29, 2016 04:25PM
Have it ground on a crank grinder. Takes like 5 minutes.

Bring it to a hard chrome shop (not decorative shiny chrome) and have them plate just the area the bearing rides on.

Neither operation should break the bank.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 29, 2016 04:46PM
Quote
Ascona73
Have it ground on a crank grinder. Takes like 5 minutes.

Bring it to a hard chrome shop (not decorative shiny chrome) and have them plate just the area the bearing rides on.

Neither operation should break the bank.

Way way overkill... again what's the speed difference 99% of the time? ZERO..
Simple turning operation.

(really think crank grinders are found commonly any more? Really think they are going to waste time on a non-standard set up and not charge? Think they have wheels they want to risk.? and any plating shop...they have shop minimums...15 years business at one shop and its still "sorry shop min"...$110 for yellow zince and it has to be clean machined steel... MIN) Hard chrome--rotsa ruck finding it and beating their shop min...)



John Vanlandingham
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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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Ascona73
Bob Legere
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 29, 2016 05:01PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
(really think crank grinders are found commonly any more? Really think they are going to waste time on a non-standard set up and not charge? Think they have wheels they want to risk.? and any plating shop...they have shop minimums...15 years business at one shop and its still "sorry shop min"...$110 for yellow zince and it has to be clean machined steel... MIN) Hard chrome--rotsa ruck finding it and beating their shop min...)

Maybe I'm just lucky. A friend of mine has a machine shop with two crank grinders. Does everything from Briggs and Stratton 1-cyl to 12 cyl diesel cranks weighing hundreds of lbs. Anyway, he lets me use the grinder all the time and I'm no machinist.

As far as chrome shops...yea maybe I'm lucky there too. Lots of them in CT due to government contracting. Also know two people who own hard chrome shops. One of my buddies does M-16 parts for Colt firearms by the thousands. So tossing an auto part to him now and again doesn't really kill his profits. But as far as the process, it's pretty fast and very straightforward, therefore not expensive.



Opel is a 4-letter word...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10498579@N07/sets/
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: T5 behind a rotary. pilot bearing....
February 29, 2016 05:45PM
Quote
Ascona73
Quote
john vanlandingham
(really think crank grinders are found commonly any more? Really think they are going to waste time on a non-standard set up and not charge? Think they have wheels they want to risk.? and any plating shop...they have shop minimums...15 years business at one shop and its still "sorry shop min"...$110 for yellow zince and it has to be clean machined steel... MIN) Hard chrome--rotsa ruck finding it and beating their shop min...)

Maybe I'm just lucky. A friend of mine has a machine shop with two crank grinders. Does everything from Briggs and Stratton 1-cyl to 12 cyl diesel cranks weighing hundreds of lbs. Anyway, he lets me use the grinder all the time and I'm no machinist.

As far as chrome shops...yea maybe I'm lucky there too. Lots of them in CT due to government contracting. Also know two people who own hard chrome shops. One of my buddies does M-16 parts for Colt firearms by the thousands. So tossing an auto part to him now and again doesn't really kill his profits. But as far as the process, it's pretty fast and very straightforward, therefore not expensive.

Yeah lucky connections is one thing.. Alex don't gotz zem and no time to search either.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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