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Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class

Posted by DanielSL 
DanielSL
Daniel
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2005 VW Mk. 4 Golf GTI 1.8T


Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 04, 2016 03:49PM
This will begin my build thread, for my 2005 Volkswagen Mark 4 Golf GTi 1.8T. I will be building it for SCCA RallyCross, in the Modified Front wheel drive class. This will be a slow build, piece by piece, as budget allows. But you have to start the thread sometime. No time like the present.

Car history; Insurance totaled, but with a rebuild-able Florida title. The Performance shop I go to bought it, and parted it out; and was going to send the shell to the wrecking yard for scrap.

I picked up the rolling chassis for $250.00, with another $200 for the needed D.S. fender, hood, radiator support, front bumper supports, and all associated needed hardware to make it look like a Mk. 4 GTi again.

Since the interior was already stripped out, I decided to go all out and do a MF build, instead of a PF; as there was no longer back seats, or any trim pieces in the interior.
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open | download - Drivers Front Damage.JPG (52.3 KB)
Drivers Front Damage.JPG
open | download - Front Damage.JPG (35.4 KB)
Front Damage.JPG
open | download - Rear Close Up.JPG (34.7 KB)
Rear Close Up.JPG
DanielSL
Daniel
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2005 VW Mk. 4 Golf GTI 1.8T


Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 04, 2016 03:56PM
Stage One:

Needed to get the rolling chassis to be complete, so I could start making a hit list of what was actually needed for doing a true RallyCross build.

Between hanging around the shop, and perusing their on-line eBay store, I was able to pick up the following for a clean $600.

Mk. 4 BBK from the Jetta GLi/20thAE/337 cars. Actually uses the same caliper, but has a larger caliper bracket that allows for bigger rotors, and is strengthend over the standard piece. This gives me 1.2" bigger rotors, and also allows me to keep my stock calipers as spares.

Set of four Ronal 17" x 7.5" wheels from an Audi TT. Needed to clear the bigger brakes.

Smoked Mk. 4 tail light housings (Stocks had been stripped prior to sale).

Mk. 4 Upper rear interior stress bar, between shock towers.

Momo Millennium steering wheel, with quick release hub.

Kamei badgeless grill (needed replacement from the initial accident).

I was also able to work a deal for the already mounted EuroJet FMIC, which the shop was going to remove and sell on their eBay site. $150.00 for an $800 retail kit, was a performance deal I could not pass up. Initially I was going to not worry about an FMIC because of the retail costs, but with Florida heat, and the fact the RX season goes through spring and summer here, it makes sense to at that price.
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open | download - Smoked Tails.JPG (50.8 KB)
Smoked Tails.JPG
open | download - Intercooler.JPG (47.8 KB)
Intercooler.JPG
open | download - Drivers Front Repaired 01.JPG (56.1 KB)
Drivers Front Repaired 01.JPG
DanielSL
Daniel
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2005 VW Mk. 4 Golf GTI 1.8T


Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 04, 2016 04:01PM
Stage Two:

Found a second set of the Audi TT Ronal 17" x 7.5" wheels on local Craigslist, for $150. Had both sets stripped and cleaned. Going to have them powder coated Gloss White in an homage to my original dream car, the Audi Sport Quattro S1.

As I am on a strict budget for this build, and it is not Stage rallying (SCCA, RA, or NASA); I cheaped out on the seats. But I need seats so I can start with the roll cage stage and other interior ideas rolling around my head.

Back to the Craigslist searching. Found an old Recaro SRD in good condition for $75.00, and a Sparco for $60.00. I still need sliders and brackets for both, so if anyone has info or leads on where to source these parts for out of production seats, I would be most obliged.

Purchased a front upper stress bar, along with new HD mounting hardware for the upper strut mounts. Found one on clearance at ECS tuning, as the Mk. 4 chassis is now over a decade old for even the last year (05'). $75.00 for everything, including FedEx shipping to the door.

Started with the obligatory application of decals/stickers, to make myself feel better about the expenditures. Because... Racecar...
Last edited by DanielSL; Today at 03:42 PM.
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IMG_20160503_172811355.jpg
open | download - IMG_20160217_181116066.jpg (40 KB)
IMG_20160217_181116066.jpg
open | download - CFR-SCCA-APRIL 006.JPG (40.3 KB)
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 09:20AM
Quote

Daniel L. Carradini wrote elsewhere:

Already have e-mails in to you about shocks / suspension questions.

Our entire Central Florida Region schedule is done at one site, about 10 miles away from my home. Makes things easier logistically.

Course is changed multiple times through the season, but location is always sand / dirt.

Majority of the competitive cars in Prepared and Modified are running Firestone WinterForce tires, so I was planning on starting there for one set of wheels. For the other, I will get the gravel tires from Rally.Build, as they have the 17" size.

I was also planning on picking up a set of Sparco Terras in 16", if they will work on the brakes. Have to test fit. If they fit, those wheels will be mounted with something for true tarmac, as much more is available in 16".

, but for at least 2-3 years it will be RallyCross only.

Boy I don't even know where to begin.. As I said, I LIKE good brakes but I always say horses for courses...Somehow most Golves and similar cars that size and weight have managed to do rally events high much higher average speeds and top speeds over 100-105 mph and somehow 15" wheels and the brakes that fit within them has been plenty of tire..

You say "most of the competitive cars have used 17" Firestone" snow tires... OK I believe you, but like a lot of things when I see something really way anomalous or out of step like that I often wonder how in one area that odd thing has come to pass. Ever since the FIA mandated 65cm as max diameter the whole world survives on gravel with max 15 inch wheels (and usually 16" on snow, 17" on asphalt... But thats in rallies with serious motors/boxes/lots of diffs..

Kinda saying "Ok lots of guys are doing this (really odd) thing. Why that rather than what seems "the whole rest of the world" seems to do?"

There are a number of real anomalies in North American loose surface play. The fact that roughly 50% of the cars being 4wd Subarus is way out of the norm everywhere else in the world.
The size of tires used considering the low output and minimal gearing changes most do is odd and I have been asked by furriners why everybody has such wide. tall fat--and heavy tires.
That in reference to the numerous performance dis-advantages from big wide HEAVY and TALL tires immediately present.

I have tried to explain to those furriners who have asked that most everything in cultures come from people just doing what they see without even a quick reflection or comparison to anything or anywhere else..more or less what you said convinced to to choose 17"..

I'm suggesting that you think again, and ask basic questions, and not "what they are doing?" but more importantly "Why are they doing that?"

In essence every mod to a car should be run thru the not what but WHY regime. And speicically "what competitive or cost or performance advantage does THIS choice have versus that choice?"

Everything is a comparison..

It very well could be that "they" are using 17" because they don't want to run out and buy smaller brakes than what came on the car--since so many modern cars have gone 17" stock all in a fashion statement 'look"

But if you want to have a car that goes well, handles well, isn't geared 10-12% taller, I'd give serious thought to making sure you don't do odd things just cause everybody else is doing odd things.

Nothing saying they would do better with better stuff closer to what is seen in the whole rest of the world.

Like 15" wheels. (and for US Grass-o-cross you do not need huge brakes)



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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Thomas Kimsey
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 09:57AM
Fastest guys in our region run 14" dmacks (and sometimes michelins I think) on their mk3 golf. Consistently get fastest time of the day against a lot of subarus.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 10:21AM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey
Fastest guys in our region run 14" dmacks (and sometimes michelins I think) on their mk3 golf. Consistently get fastest time of the day against a lot of subarus.

Yeah. To me that makes sense..twisty, short, low speed we want the car to be low, and turn., so short tires and suspension travel. Not Super Swamper Max Mudder 28" diameter thangs.



John Vanlandingham
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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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DanielSL
Daniel
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2005 VW Mk. 4 Golf GTI 1.8T


Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 11:24AM
Good points, and very well written John. Please don't misunderstand me though. I mean only that the competitive cars in Prepared and Modified, in my region, SCCA CFR, for RallyCross only, have been using the Firestone Snow tires with much success. Not every where, not every class, not a catch all reason.

I looked over not only what is in the paddocks this year, but have been talking to each team, each driver, and looking over the results from past few years.

From your responses, I am now looking at a smaller sidewall tire however. So instead of a 28" tire, I will be running a 26.5" instead. Only saves me 1 lb per tire, but lowers me down for better CofG.

Most of my thought process is budget centric, as well. I got out of road racing years ago, and now with a family, I cannot even afford a competitive ProSolo attempt. So RallyCross it is. But still have to keep the numbers low enough for Wife approval, or at the very least, to keep me out of divorce court.

As far as brakes, the Mk. 4 GTi is much different from a Mk. 3 Golf. These cars came stock with 17" to fit the stock brakes, and the spare is a high offset 16" to clear them. So even if I kept standard brakes, I would already be into 16" at the smallest, and even then only a small selection of wheels will work.

Now onto converting the car to studs, and picking up a 16" Terra to see if I can clear the brakes as they are now.


Thomas, on another note: I'm from NH. Born in Boston, and raised in Derry. Started my racing at NHIS with COMSCC, and graduated to SCCA ITB, 25 years ago with Rabbit GTi's. Had an uncle that lived in Rochester. Beautiful area, and NER is an awesome group of people. First rally I ever witnessed was actually a hill climb - Climb to the Clouds with O'Neil in a Mk. 2 Rally Golf G60.
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DG_Rally
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 01:17PM
Quote
DanielSL
As far as brakes, the Mk. 4 GTi is much different from a Mk. 3 Golf. These cars came stock with 17" to fit the stock brakes, and the spare is a high offset 16" to clear them. So even if I kept standard brakes, I would already be into 16" at the smallest, and even then only a small selection of wheels will work.

Now onto converting the car to studs, and picking up a 16" Terra to see if I can clear the brakes as they are now.

Hi Daniel.

You can run 15" wheels on a MK4 with the stock brakes. I had a 2003 mk4 GTI 1.8t and I used 15" wheels off of a mk3 VR6 with snow tires for winter and rallyx.

The big rotors would be great if you're running the car on road with big wheels but if rallycross is your flavor and you don't want to go broke, sell the brake kit and use the cash to buy stock brakes, 15" wheels and tires. The smaller tires alone will save you a heap of money, every season.

Those audi wheels are sweet. I was looking for a set to put on my wife's MK6 sportwagen in the summer. As tempting as it may be to run them they will not help you in your mission to have an affordable rallyx program. Nor will they offer any performance gains as John mentioned above.

Larger tire sidewalls are your friend in rally/x you're just opening up the possibility of more debeads and bent rims. IMHO



Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2016 01:21PM by DG_Rally.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 01:33PM
Quote
DG_Rally
Quote
DanielSL
As far as brakes, the Mk. 4 GTi is much different from a Mk. 3 Golf. These cars came stock with 17" to fit the stock brakes, and the spare is a high offset 16" to clear them. So even if I kept standard brakes, I would already be into 16" at the smallest, and even then only a small selection of wheels will work.

Now onto converting the car to studs, and picking up a 16" Terra to see if I can clear the brakes as they are now.

Hi Daniel.

You can run 15" wheels on a MK4 with the stock brakes. I had a 2003 mk4 GTI 1.8t and I used 15" wheels off of a mk3 VR6 with snow tires for winter and rallyx.

The big rotors would be great if you're running the car on road with big wheels but if rallycross is your flavor and you don't want to go broke, sell the brake kit and use the cash to buy stock brakes, 15" wheels and tires. The smaller tires alone will save you a heap of money, every season.

Those audi wheels are sweet. I was looking for a set to put on my wife's MK6 sportwagen in the summer. As tempting as it may be to run them they will not help you in your mission to have an affordable rallyx program. Nor will they offer any performance gains as John mentioned above.

Larger tire sidewalls are your friend in rally/x you're just opening up the possibility of more debeads and bent rims. IMHO

Yeah listen to Grenvis. He may not be able to say his name right (its vis dammit VEEE!) but he's not anywhere near as dumb as everybody says..

Speakin of switch, gimme a call tonight if you're sober...pick up threads on the projects.



John Vanlandingham
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DG_Rally
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 01:56PM
Ironically, I was planning on calling you after work tonight. I should be somewhat sober.



Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com
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DexterVW
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 03:23PM
if i remember correctly you have to swap to non GTI front brakes to clear 15" wheels, which really for rallyx isn't terrible at all (use good cold pads, hawk or EBC blues)

or you can put on some mk3 front brakes and run as small as a 13" the drag guys do it all the time or so I'm told (sold both sets of front caliper brackets off my parts mk3's for this very thing)

Dave
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 04:04PM
Quote
DexterVW
if i remember correctly you have to swap to non GTI front brakes to clear 15" wheels, which really for rallyx isn't terrible at all (use good cold pads, hawk or EBC blues)

or you can put on some mk3 front brakes and run as small as a 13" the drag guys do it all the time or so I'm told (sold both sets of front caliper brackets off my parts mk3's for this very thing)

Dave

I think it would be worth some thinking and poking to see if MkIII ordinary front spindles complete could be used in front so the struts or conventional "flag" or "ear" type with two bolts instead of MkIV "socket in and pinch". The latter locks in the distance centerline of strut to hub flange face, where the earlier allows some wiggle room. (by using longer ears)

Same goes for the MkII/MkIII rear shock tower/turrets...Seems like that would be a real smart step to "harvest" those and grant them into the MkIV so the spring could be liberated from the cramped confines of between the subframe and the lower arm--where length and adjustability are problems..Same goes for Fuck-us and Siesta..In fact that cram the short little spring in where its hard to get to is a big dumb fad tight now..
Towers!

FREEDOM!!!!




John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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DG_Rally
Dave Grenwis
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 05, 2016 09:28PM
Quote
DexterVW
if i remember correctly you have to swap to non GTI front brakes to clear 15" wheels, which really for rallyx isn't terrible at all (use good cold pads, hawk or EBC blues)

or you can put on some mk3 front brakes and run as small as a 13" the drag guys do it all the time or so I'm told (sold both sets of front caliper brackets off my parts mk3's for this very thing)

Dave

No, MK4 GTI brakes are the same as the Golf and fit 15" wheels. Only the 337/20th/GLI are bigger. Everyone was running 15" snow tires back in my MK4 days. No idea what size is on the TDI's.

I don't know how long your rallyx courses are but I've never seen a course in the midwest that was long enough to get cold pads warm enough to work properly. OEM or EBC greens worked fine for me.



Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com
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dunhamr1
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 06, 2016 06:13AM
My daily is a mkIV TDI golf and it has stock 15" wheels... I can check P/Ns on the brake hardware if you're interested.
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DexterVW
David Baker
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
May 06, 2016 08:41AM
Quote
DG_Rally
Quote
DexterVW
if i remember correctly you have to swap to non GTI front brakes to clear 15" wheels, which really for rallyx isn't terrible at all (use good cold pads, hawk or EBC blues)

or you can put on some mk3 front brakes and run as small as a 13" the drag guys do it all the time or so I'm told (sold both sets of front caliper brackets off my parts mk3's for this very thing)

Dave

No, MK4 GTI brakes are the same as the Golf and fit 15" wheels. Only the 337/20th/GLI are bigger. Everyone was running 15" snow tires back in my MK4 days. No idea what size is on the TDI's.

I don't know how long your rallyx courses are but I've never seen a course in the midwest that was long enough to get cold pads warm enough to work properly. OEM or EBC greens worked fine for me.

good to know grinning smiley danke
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