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Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class

Posted by DanielSL 
Pete
Pete Remner
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 12, 2016 01:01PM
Quote
DanielSL
Pete; As long as its gravel doing the knock down, at least you won't be penalized. LOL.

I finally found OEM alloys that fit the GTi brakes, and allow me to install the TT brakes in the rear. This will give me the ability to run the DMack tyres on 15"'s, and have vented rotors all the way around.
Staying away from cross-drilled, to keep down the chance of cracking, but will use slotted and vented on all four corners with Hawk pads.
For now, I'm looking at the DMack DMG2 in G2H (Hard) for down here in Florida. Maybe a Medium compound, for year round usability. With it being only RX, I am thinking I will get a full season or more out of a set. Will purchase 6 for now, to include spares. They aren't that much more than using Snow tires. I think 3 for the price of 4. So I can get 6 for the cost of two sets of tires I probably would not have been happy with anyways in the long run.

Cones count if you cause them to fall over no matter if it's from the car or its wake. Read the rules smiling smiley

There is zero - ZERO - reason for vented brakes in rallycross. You WILL NOT get them hot. You're never on the brakes for more than a quarter second or so, to set the chassis if need be. Big brakes just adds unsprung weight which means less grip which means you can't control as easily which means SLOW.

Oddly enough, this is a great application for drilled brakes because you won't get them hot enough to crack but the weight benefits are real. Get you some of those octagonal solid rotors!



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2016 01:02PM by Pete.
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DanielSL
Daniel
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 12, 2016 01:54PM
Thanks, Pete, for the advice.

I was mis-reading the rules on Cone tips it looks like. I thought as long as you are clear and through, then if your wheel kick ups are throwing a wake, it would not matter.

The rear brakes I will be going to are the same diameter, just thicker to account for the venting. So weight increase won't be too much. However, if I go to a couple of Rally Sprints, then it will be nice to have them.

My major concern here for not doing cross drilled is the sand (sugar sand) we run in. I see so many competitors hosing their cars off after each run to get the sand out of their wheels and brake components, and it just seems nuts to me to do that. 2 minutes or less after completing a run, and introducing pressurized water into the brakes, wheels, etc...

After observing and paying as much attention as I can at the first three events this year; our Top drivers in Prepared and Modified average about 2 minutes to 2:10 for the course runs. Average is about 2:15-2:30. The less experienced drivers and the Stock guys are running averages of about 2:30-3:00. I am expecting that my first few events, I will be in the 2:30 to 3 minute mark, as I am learning a whole different type of driving.

I haven't slid in the dirt since I learned how to drive stick at 15 on my dad's Saab 99 rally "tribute" car, and his 900's. All my off road driving has been in my land rovers and range rover; and they don't slide, drift, or even use the word performance in their vocabulary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2016 02:02PM by DanielSL.
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Pete
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 12, 2016 08:59PM
Stock cars are usually faster than Modified. People who run Stock usually have new cars and Mod have older cars, new cars have a lot more power and usually way better tuned dampers than old junk, and when people modify their cars they usually do it in all the wrong ways. I have never seen a thoroughly gutted car run faster than a heavy car. Nor have I ever seen a car running on huge WRC sized 5 year old takeoff tires running faster than someone on new correct-size tires.

But what do people usually run in Mod? Old POSes with no grip because they have massively out of whack sprung:unsprung ratios and the suspension isn't keeping the tires on the ground. And then some guy in a stock STI on shredded snow tires embarasses the whole MA field by actually driving the damn car instead of farting around playing super cool Ken Block guy crap pitching and sliding and left foot whatevering.

What is the goal? Get to the finish line in the minimum amount of time without hitting anything.

What detracts from that goal? Not being able to control the car because you're bouncing and sideways and other wasteful shit.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2016 09:02PM by Pete.
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DanielSL
Daniel
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 13, 2016 06:13AM
Pete;

Here's a link to Event number One:

https://drive.google.com/a/strategicimcorp.com/file/d/0B855msUgdBkuTkJ5cXBaYVI3bkU/view?pref=2&pli=1

Almost all drivers have been the same through the first three events, and I have worked timing and scoring for the last two.

The majority of cars in the Prepared and Modified divisions are Lancer Evos, WRX-STI's, and a couple of Miatas thrown in for good measure.

The stock class is Legacy's, Miatas, and Imprezas.

We have a lot of good drivers, with a huge amount that have gone to Nationals in this division. Also, one of them, a Miata driver I believe, was actually a National champion.

In this region, what makes the difference, is the amount of "real" Rally cars that are here. There are two cars brought down from "The Firm" that are driven by either owners or instructors from that location. There is an ex-Nasa Ford Focus, two or three ex-Nasa Lancers, and ex-SCCA Pro Rally WRX-STI, two or three ex Rally America cars, etc...
There are even two ex-European rally cars. One is an awesome little Peugeot 206 that was imported from Chile, and the other is an ex-WRC built Lancer Evo that is driven by a gentleman who came over from Israel, and has lots of experience. We even have a gentleman that moved to Florida from France that has years of Professional rallying under his belt, who is teaching his high school aged daughter the fundamentals using the R-X format. He usually sets FTD, which is not surprising.

BTW; The little Peugeot 206 is absolutely amazing for a normally aspirated 1.6 liter car. It really shows what can be done with a skilled driver, and a properly set up car. Unfortunately, I will be in his class when my car is finished.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 13, 2016 12:44PM
looking at the results...Badass class: 6 runs average 119.1 second-per run
and the P class................................6 runs average 120.5 seconds per run..

about 1% difference

Clearly modding CARS in any way is meaningless for this kinda of hooning..
Driver driving cleanly and as I said 1000 times driver avoiding MAJOR BLUNDERS is key.
Not vented 17" discs and crazy tires and mucho turbos or anything much.

Just don't fuck up.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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danster
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 13, 2016 01:25PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
looking at the results...Badass class: 6 runs average 119.1 second-per run
and the P class................................6 runs average 120.5 seconds per run..

about 1% difference

Clearly modding CARS in any way is meaningless for this kinda of hooning..
Driver driving cleanly and as I said 1000 times driver avoiding MAJOR BLUNDERS is key.
Not vented 17" discs and crazy tires and mucho turbos or anything much.

Just don't fuck up.

But that's not what some people want to hear though John. It's all about blowing cash on shit you don't need that often makes the car slower...

Having a car with feck all grunt is often advantageous as it doesn't instantly lose traction when the throttle is applied.
My wee 1600 class car regularly whipped the up to 2.0 litre and over 2.0 litre class cars. My engine was standard but for the Weber 32/36 I grafted on to the inlet manifold.
4x4 Escort Cossie with anti-lag and a cammed 5.9 AMC with 4 barrel Holley were a couple of cars that got skelped for FTD.
I actually downgraded the front discs from 239mm vented to 239mm solid to save weight. And just a pair of 165x13 chunky tyres on the front was about the limit of my "tuning" exploits!



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Pete
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 13, 2016 01:28PM
Quote
danster
But that's not what some people want to hear though John. It's all about blowing cash on shit you don't need that often makes the car slower...

DING DING DING DING DING



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 13, 2016 03:26PM
Quote
danster
Quote
john vanlandingham
looking at the results...Badass class: 6 runs average 119.1 second-per run
and the P class................................6 runs average 120.5 seconds per run..

about 1% difference

Clearly modding CARS in any way is meaningless for this kinda of hooning..
Driver driving cleanly and as I said 1000 times driver avoiding MAJOR BLUNDERS is key.
Not vented 17" discs and crazy tires and mucho turbos or anything much.

Just don't fuck up.

But that's not what some people want to hear though John. It's all about blowing cash on shit you don't need that often makes the car slower...

Having a car with feck all grunt is often advantageous as it doesn't instantly lose traction when the throttle is applied.
My wee 1600 class car regularly whipped the up to 2.0 litre and over 2.0 litre class cars. My engine was standard but for the Weber 32/36 I grafted on to the inlet manifold.
4x4 Escort Cossie with anti-lag and a cammed 5.9 AMC with 4 barrel Holley were a couple of cars that got skelped for FTD.
I actually downgraded the front discs from 239mm vented to 239mm solid to save weight. And just a pair of 165x13 chunky tyres on the front was about the limit of my "tuning" exploits!

Yeah but Danny ya know I have certainly fawk all for brains left. Ya cannae bang your gord into the ground hundreds of time wifout it affecting ya in some ways....a little.
And evidently I don't understand a whole range of things that all these boys understand is NEEDED....like gotta have min 290 hp..Got TO. Gotta have a Kenworth powered semi-truck as a service barge...its cool!! Can't show up wif oot it.

Didya look at the times the guy posted?..I don't understand any of it really...All the classes all over the place in times.. "Slow" guys in boring spec street cars beating or within 1% of "a gentleman that moved to Florida from France that has years of Professional rallying under his belt"
I don't understand how its possible except in what we call "The Bizzarro World", a place where everything is backwards and whatever you claim is supposed to be accepted with a nod..and a "Oh, that's kewl".

Where pretending to "need" things is never prodded at....
Makes me miss bikes..One glance at a guy down one straight and entering one corner and you know if the guy has a clue or if he's a total plonker....



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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danster
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 13, 2016 04:17PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Didya look at the times the guy posted?..I don't understand any of it really...All the classes all over the place in times.. "Slow" guys in boring spec street cars beating or within 1% of "a gentleman that moved to Florida from France that has years of Professional rallying under his belt"

It may not be politically correct to state this in the modern world we now live in, but the stark and blindingly obvious reality is that some people are just more capable than others.

Confucius say: "Bolting a larger turbo (aka talent compensator) on to an engine will often not produce the results if the performance deficit lies elsewhere."



Disappointingly not yet a Jackass
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Pete
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 13, 2016 06:16PM
One of my friends ALMOST won Mod Rear in an essentially stock Miata. Got the win sniped out from under him at the last minute by a tenth or two. By someone in a *gack cough* 1.8l BMW. (Hi Josh!)

He's planning on a supercharger for his car. I joked "Oh, so you want to be slow like the rest of us?"

HP is great at certain regions' sites where you can let a car stretch its legs. National level courses tend to be a bit tighter and trickier and horsepower hurts you as much as it seems to help.

Of course, I don't know nothin', I've only been doing it since back when there were four classes and it was scored autocross-style, only fastest single run counts.



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2016 06:17PM by Pete.
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danster
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 14, 2016 05:57AM
Quote
Pete
HP is great at certain regions' sites where you can let a car stretch its legs. National level courses tend to be a bit tighter and trickier and horsepower hurts you as much as it seems to help.

Of course, I don't know nothin', I've only been doing it since back when there were four classes and it was scored autocross-style, only fastest single run counts.

For sure loads of grunt works in some particular scenarios. But fapping around and optimising the car for a couple of scenario often means the car is shit or at least compromised in the majority of others situations.
Self awareness is important. EG: I live in Scotland where the weather includes beaucoups precipitation all year round. That being the case it would be folly to ignore reality and build a car that is optimised for the dry. This is especially relevant in likes of grassocross / autocross.

I also liked limited classes with just engine capacity splits rather than splitting out FWD, RWD, and 4WD.
But that seems an old-fashioned view with everyone now needing to win a prize.

Feck it, the sun is oot so I'm off on my mtb for a blast round the local hills. Hopefully I'll get a sector win or two once I filter out everyone that is quicker and that will leave me the absolute outright winner of the "Semi-old, Sagittarian, 72kg, male, riding a blue hardtail bike with 26" wheels and half worn tyres on Thursday the 14th July 2016 class".



Disappointingly not yet a Jackass



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 05:58AM by danster.
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Paddy1337
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 14, 2016 06:40AM
Quote
Pete

Of course, I don't know nothin', I've only been doing it since back when there were four classes and it was scored autocross-style, only fastest single run counts.

Wait. Have they gone full autox style with classing now? Last time I did an autox there were 4 classes; 2wd & 4wd, each of which broken up by street tire or rally tire.
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DanielSL
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 14, 2016 08:40AM
Past the point of no return now. Decided from the feedback of the posters watching this thread, that I will not tune the car until after I see what is at the wheels on the dyno, once fully built.

The original plan was to have 250 at the wheels, but it seems that I would never be able to plant it, even running the DMack Tyres. Going from the stock VW 180 Hp, to the Audi 225 Hp should get me closer to 200 at least. The primary goal has always been reliability. Why tune the AWP engine, when the AMU engine gives me 45 more HP stock, with only a larger turbo, and freer flowing downpipe.

Once I start dyno tuning, I will get it to 200 at the wheels, and then set the curves for the torque to be down low, and any additional Hp to be higher up in the powerband. That way if I eventually do Rally sprints, or a more traditional rally; I will have the Hp for the straights.

I believe going this way, and coupling to the 5 speed gearbox, rather than the 6 speed, should result in a more practical and usable car.
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dreamsofjvl
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 14, 2016 11:07AM
Quote
DanielSL
Past the point of no return now.

Why? Have you actually done anything that you have "planned"?

Spend money actually competing. Shitcan your plans (they aren't going to make your car better or faster). If you want, at least be honest with yourself and tell yourself/us that you want to do this stuff just because you want to do it. I normally don't agree with a lot of the guys on Rally Anarchy about stuff, but they certainly are right in this regard.

Order of spending money:

1) Getting out to compete
2) Tires
3) Suspension
4) If you are hellbent on it, strip the car/lighten it as that is free and MK4 Golfs are pigs

Anything else is a waste.

Edit-
As for gravel rally tires, out here at least, they don't make enough of a difference to matter. Skill trumps that, and gravel tires are stupid expensive. I wouldn't be buying new ones to have chunked and worn out in only a day of use anyways, unless they were cheap. Used gravel tires are your best bet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 11:09AM by dreamsofjvl.
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DanielSL
Daniel
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Re: Mark 4 VW 1.8T GTi Build - RallyCross - MF Class
July 14, 2016 11:28AM
Stage Four:

The strip out is done. Gone is the stock AWP code 180 Hp engine and the stock 5 speed. Now to cleaning up the engine bay of everything that is Not needed. Going to relocate the battery to the trunk. Thinking about removing the A/C system, but not sure since I am in Florida after all.

The rear 337/20AE valance has been removed. Decided it hung down way too low, and would just be a sand shovel on the rear bumper cover. Now have easy access to rear tow point as well.

The rear suspension is being set up. Went from a stock GTi rear sway bar to the solid 28 mm Neuspeed unit, which is adjustable. Set it to full hard for now, hoping to make it easier to rotate the rear around. Removed the front sway bar at the advice of many VW rally and RX drivers.

For now, using VW Jetta station wagon springs for additional height. About 1.5" over stock ride height. The car came with Koni coilovers, and even at full height, it was still sitting about 1/2" lower than stock. Just have some junkyard shocks in there right now to keep it as a roller. Stage one will be either Bilstein HD or Koni units. Was thinking the Str.T series until I read about their Special D version which is rebound adjustable. At less than $50 per pair more than the Str.T; it only makes sense to have adjustable rebound.
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