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gear ratio input

Posted by urr 
urr
Andrew Sutherland
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urr
gear ratio input
May 24, 2016 04:14PM
I'm working on building a new gear set for the civic. I built a table to compare the current set-up with a close ratio gear set that I'm looking at. The biggest issue with the current gears was that 1st was pretty much unusable as I always start in 2nd on stage, and the spread between 5th and 6th seemed too big. I rarely saw 6th on stage above 6k rpm.

The off the shelf close ration box tops out at 109 mph, which I think is 10 mph too low since we have fast stages in the US. My options are to raise the final drive or just go with a slightly taller 5th gear. Both have pros and cons.

Any thoughts from people with experience??
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fliz
Chad Eixenberger
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1988 VW Golf #687


Re: gear ratio input
May 24, 2016 05:06PM
Group 2 Civic? Go with option 1.

We may have fast stages...but not so fast that you see any significant time over 100 mph in a 2wd car.
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urr
Andrew Sutherland
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urr
Re: gear ratio input
May 24, 2016 05:29PM
Quote
fliz
Group 2 Civic? Go with option 1.

We may have fast stages...but not so fast that you see any significant time over 100 mph in a 2wd car.

G5 civic smiling smiley

I saw a fair amount of time over 100 at Olympus....same with Reno, Idaho, Prescott etc...

Ideally, I'd have two gearboxes, normal and fast, and swap as necessary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2016 05:31PM by urr.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: gear ratio input
May 24, 2016 08:15PM
Quote
fliz
Group 2 Civic? Go with option 1.

We may have fast stages...but not so fast that you see any significant time over 100 mph in a 2wd car.

That's the thing: how much actual minutes and seconds is above 110 mph?

Way back in the 40mm restrictor days---the best days of Group A----my one time co-driver and I went to 1993 Monte Carlo Rally


They were 1.3 liter pushrod motors.. Ola Stromber and Stig Blomqvist had consulted on the gears..Ola is a long term friend...he told me about the whole thing.
Here is the results..Good fields with plenty of people capable of winning..
It was colder than hell but clean dry asphalt---a huge advantage for high powered cars and those 40mm motors made an honest 390-395 hp
61. Rallye Automobile de Monte-Carlo 1993
21. 1. – 27. 1. 1993 • asphalt - snow 593,62 km • Other years
WRC #1 - PWRC #1
Stage results
Itinerary
Entry list
Retirement
Penalty
Info
Stats
Stage times
Models
Final results
All
PWRC
M
2L
All
A5
A7
A8
N1
N2
N3
N4
Final results
finished: 86 (86 on list)
Time
Penalty Diff.
Diff. pr. Km/h
s/km
1. #3 flagflag Auriol Didier - Occelli Bernard icon Toyota Celica Turbo 4WD (ST185)
Toyota Castrol Team A8
M 6:13:43---SIX HOURS! THIRTEEN MINUTES
95.3

2. #6 flagflag Delecour François - Grataloup Daniel icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth
Ford Motor Co Ltd A8
M 6:13:58
+15
+15 95.2
0.03
3. #2 flagflag Biasion Miki - Siviero Tiziano icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth
Ford Motor Co Ltd A8
M 6:16:59
+3:16
+3:01 94.5
0.33
4. #8 flagflag Eriksson Kenneth - Parmander Staffan icon Mitsubishi Lancer Evo I
Mitsubishi Ralliart A8
M 6:31:30
+17:47
+14:31 91.0
1.80
5. #7 flagflag Kankkunen Juha - Piironen Juha icon Toyota Celica Turbo 4WD (ST185)
Toyota Castrol Team A8
M 6:32:43
+19:00
+1:13 90.7
1.92
6. #4 flagflag Schwarz Armin - Grist Nicky icon Mitsubishi Lancer Evo I
Mitsubishi Ralliart A8
M 6:39:45
+26:02
+7:02 89.1
2.63
7. #15 flagflag Burri Olivier - Hofmann Christophe icon Ford Sierra RS Cosworth 4x4 A8
6:51:03
+37:20
+11:18 86.6
3.77
8. #10 flagflag Thiry Bruno - Prévot Stéphane icon Opel Astra GSi 16V
Opel Team Belgium A7
2L 6:54:08
+40:25
+3:05 86.0
4.09
9. #16 flagflag Spiliotis Christophe - Thibaud Hervé icon Lancia Delta HF Integrale N4
6:56:24
+42:41
+2:16 85.5
4.31
10. #29 flagflag Serpaggi Jean-Baptiste - Serpaggi Francis icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth N4
2L 6:57:58
+44:15
+1:34 85.2
4.47
11. #22 flagflag Ballet Jean-Pierre - Dupont Jean-Pierre icon Peugeot 309 GTI
Peugeot Sport A7
7:00:55
+47:12
+2:57 84.6
4.77
12. #14 flagflag Holderied Isolde - Thörner Christina icon Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 N4
7:08:44
+55:01
+7:49 83.1
5.56
13. #19 flagflag Driano Christine - Lallement Marie-Christine icon Citroën ZX 16V A7
2L 7:08:47
+55:04
+3 83.1
5.57
14. #1 flagflag Sainz Carlos - Moya Luis icon Lancia Delta HF Integrale
Jolly Club A8
M 7:09:07
+55:24
+20 83.0
5.60
15. #25 flagflag Dionisio Ermanno - Barone Maurizio icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth N4
7:09:35
+55:52
+28 82.9
5.65
16. #24 flagflag Aymé Jean-Paul - Aymé Brigitte icon Ford Escort RS Cosworth N4
7:13:56
+1:00:13
+4:21 82.1
6.09
17. #72 flagflag Phillips Franck - Peyret Olivier icon Ford Sierra RS Cosworth N4
7:14:24
+1:00:41
+28 82.0
6.13
18. #9 flagflag Sibera Pavel - Gross Petr icon Škoda Favorit 136L
Škoda Motorsport A5

2L 7:15:58
+1:02:15
+1:34 81.7
6.29
19. #146 flagflag Colonna D'Istria Philippe - Altana Patrick icon Nissan Sunny GTI-R N4
7:18:59
+1:05:16
+3:01 81.1
6.60
20. #39 flagflag Farnaud Michel - Giraud Thierry icon Renault 5 GT Turbo N4
7:23:21
+1:09:38
+4:22 80.3
7.04
21. #94 flagflag Dumas Maurice - Diague Jean-Paul icon Peugeot 309 GTI A7
2L 7:23:24
+1:09:41
+3 80.3
7.04
22. #44 flagflag Rubiolo Philippe - Pascal Laurent icon Renault Clio 16S N3
7:24:38
+1:10:55
+1:14 80.1
7.17
23. #11 flagflag Triner Emil - Klíma Jiří icon Škoda Favorit 136L
Škoda Motorsport A5
2L 7:25:00

+1:11:17


Very fast in many places.
Those Skodas would do maximum speeds of 140km/hr just short of 90mph
Entry list
total entries 170 (178 on list)

Sure maybe they would have done a little better with more top speed..
But they sure beat a lotta guys with just 90mph...

I did ask one of the Ford guys what they were geared for and it was about 190 km/hr or about 117mph..

Personally I think if a car can hit 105 then fine....Its just revs at that point. Rev the bugger.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

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1992 Golf


Re: gear ratio input
May 25, 2016 09:23PM
Seen it time and time again in many different venues, rally should be absolutely no different, gearing and suspension should be at their limit 10% of the time otherwise they are not seeing their full potential. When I say 10% I mean on 10% of the straights you hit the rev limiter and on 10% of the hard hits/landings you should get into the bumpstops on both ends of the car. Everyone talks 120mph, but never time to cover distance with hundreds of 2-3-4-5-4-3-2 over the course of an event. You don't need 2 gear sets go with option #1 and it's a Honda, rev the piss out of it if you need to. Staying at or near the limit and actually being able to enter the braking zone at a fixed speed on the long runs will have you lifting later since there won't be the normal mental game as to how fast am I going how much room do I need. Someone must have data here as to how much time they've spent above even 100mph on the super fast rallies, bet it's in the seconds at most hard to shoot for that as a must have when you spend at least an hour under that speed. You don't have 300 hp and you don't weigh 3000# don't worry about what a blubaru does, a 2000# 170hp car geared for 110mph makes a lot of sense.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2016 09:26PM by ElectroTech.
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Erik Christiansen
Erik Christiansen
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VW GTI


Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 10:37AM
With those numbers I also vote for option #1. They are actually very close to the 8v VWMS ratios I am currently putting in my car:

1 - 44mph
2 - 61mph
3 - 77mph
4 - 94mph
5 - 106mph

I will also add that there is actually a pretty big difference between reaching 100mph and 110mph on stage. No doubt you will top 100mph at Prescott and HDT. I don't think you will hit 100mph for very long (if at all) on the current Idaho roads. Definitely not at Gorman, Mendocino and Frazier Mountain.

I'm curious what your redline is and what tire rolling circumference you are using in your calcs. In my experience, the actual rolling circumference has been slightly smaller than published values. For the 175/70R15 Pirellis I am currently running, the published rolling circumference is 1876mm, however when I match rpm to speed from GPS I back out a rolling circumference of 1820mm. It could be an inaccurate tachometer, or maybe my tire pressure is lower than spec? It is enough to make a difference of a few mph at the top end. This is measured at 60mph. I don't know if centrifugal forces will make the tire expand at higher speeds, in which case the rolling circumference would grow, giving you back those few mph. I haven't had the opportunity to do a calibration test at 100mph.

Edited to add: I would avoid option #2. You will hate that 4-5 shift every time you need to go over 93mph. It's a wider spread than your current 4-5 gears.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2016 10:47AM by Erik Christiansen.
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urr
Andrew Sutherland
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urr
Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 12:37PM
Thanks....some good input. My numbers are based on a 7800 rpm and 25" tires (I ran 185's the last two events and moving to 195's going forward).

Gear spread is definitely important in a 170hp car, especially in the higher gears, but it's not as big a deal with my current set-up. I agree that option #2, the spread between 4/5 would be annoying.

One thing that I've learned from racing the SRT-4 years ago is that conventional rally wisdom doesn't always work on our un-conventional rally roads and cars.

Anyone know the ratios in the R2's?
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Aaron Luptak
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Civic...



Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 01:21PM
Quote
urr
Anyone know the ratios in the R2's?

(From http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,83097,page=2 - link to the PDF is broken, I think I have a copy floating around somewhere)

Quote
Aaron Luptak
so, did some digging and found this - http://www.teamfloral.be/media/fiestaR2/05_Sadev_Gearbox_Manual.pdf - claims to be the Sadev Manual for the R2 gearbox (at least as of 2009, no idea if they've made any changes since then).

The part that I was really looking for - gear ratios:
(tooth counts from the pdf, ratios calc'ed by myself)
1) 36/12 3:1
2) 34/16 2.125:1
3) 28/17 1.647:1
4) 27/20 1.35:1
5) 24/21 1.142:1

FD Options
54/13 4.154:1
53/12 4.417:1
57/12 4.75:1



KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com
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Aaron Luptak
Aaron Luptak
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Civic...



Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 01:27PM
Aaron Luptak
Aaron Luptak
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Join Date: 02/15/2008
Age: Settling Down
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Civic...



Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 01:43PM
one more, the 5-speed ratios for the GrN Fiesta ST (h-pattern, instead of sequential):
http://racing.teamfloral.be/images/racing-parts/ST/Sadev_Gear_Kit.pdf

1) 34/12 2.833:1
2) 27/13 2.077:1
3) 23/14 1.643:1
4) 23/17 1.353:1
5) 22/19 1.158:1

FD
47/11 4.273:1



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http://www.utahrallygroup.com
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john vanlandingham
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Saab 96 V4



Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 01:45PM

Nice box and details..for a n.a motor 1,6 to 2,0



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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1992 Golf


Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 01:49PM
Quote
Aaron Luptak
Quote
urr
Anyone know the ratios in the R2's?

(From http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,83097,page=2 - link to the PDF is broken, I think I have a copy floating around somewhere)

Quote
Aaron Luptak
so, did some digging and found this - http://www.teamfloral.be/media/fiestaR2/05_Sadev_Gearbox_Manual.pdf - claims to be the Sadev Manual for the R2 gearbox (at least as of 2009, no idea if they've made any changes since then).

The part that I was really looking for - gear ratios:
(tooth counts from the pdf, ratios calc'ed by myself)
1) 36/12 3:1
2) 34/16 2.125:1
3) 28/17 1.647:1
4) 27/20 1.35:1
5) 24/21 1.142:1

FD Options
54/13 4.154:1
53/12 4.417:1
57/12 4.75:1
Gadzukes, someone call MSport, their car only does 101 mph they are never going to win anything. I mean the R2 Fiesta is so special in every other respect that it somehow makes up for the wrong gearing, how can it not go 120 it's unfathomable.......



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,993

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 02:00PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
Aaron Luptak
Quote
urr
Anyone know the ratios in the R2's?

(From http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,83097,page=2 - link to the PDF is broken, I think I have a copy floating around somewhere)

Quote
Aaron Luptak
so, did some digging and found this - http://www.teamfloral.be/media/fiestaR2/05_Sadev_Gearbox_Manual.pdf - claims to be the Sadev Manual for the R2 gearbox (at least as of 2009, no idea if they've made any changes since then).

The part that I was really looking for - gear ratios:
(tooth counts from the pdf, ratios calc'ed by myself)
1) 36/12 3:1
2) 34/16 2.125:1
3) 28/17 1.647:1
4) 27/20 1.35:1
5) 24/21 1.142:1

FD Options
54/13 4.154:1
53/12 4.417:1
57/12 4.75:1
Gadzukes, someone call MSport, their car only does 101 mph they are never going to win anything. I mean the R2 Fiesta is so special in every other respect that it somehow makes up for the wrong gearing, how can it not go 120 it's unfathomable.......

Predictably about 15.5 mph per 1000 in top gear..
Add 1 more thousand Are Pea Ems, silly goose.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 02:10PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
Aaron Luptak
Quote
urr
Anyone know the ratios in the R2's?

(From http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,83097,page=2 - link to the PDF is broken, I think I have a copy floating around somewhere)

Quote
Aaron Luptak
so, did some digging and found this - http://www.teamfloral.be/media/fiestaR2/05_Sadev_Gearbox_Manual.pdf - claims to be the Sadev Manual for the R2 gearbox (at least as of 2009, no idea if they've made any changes since then).

The part that I was really looking for - gear ratios:
(tooth counts from the pdf, ratios calc'ed by myself)
1) 36/12 3:1
2) 34/16 2.125:1
3) 28/17 1.647:1
4) 27/20 1.35:1
5) 24/21 1.142:1

FD Options
54/13 4.154:1
53/12 4.417:1
57/12 4.75:1
Gadzukes, someone call MSport, their car only does 101 mph they are never going to win anything. I mean the R2 Fiesta is so special in every other respect that it somehow makes up for the wrong gearing, how can it not go 120 it's unfathomable.......

Predictably about 15.5 mph per 1000 in top gear..
Add 1 more thousand Are Pea Ems, silly goose.
She only goes 6500........as per dem who makes it!



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Godlike Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,993

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: gear ratio input
May 26, 2016 02:23PM
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
john vanlandingham
Quote
ElectroTech
Quote
Aaron Luptak
Quote
urr
Anyone know the ratios in the R2's?

(From http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,83097,page=2 - link to the PDF is broken, I think I have a copy floating around somewhere)

Quote
Aaron Luptak
so, did some digging and found this - http://www.teamfloral.be/media/fiestaR2/05_Sadev_Gearbox_Manual.pdf - claims to be the Sadev Manual for the R2 gearbox (at least as of 2009, no idea if they've made any changes since then).

The part that I was really looking for - gear ratios:
(tooth counts from the pdf, ratios calc'ed by myself)
1) 36/12 3:1
2) 34/16 2.125:1
3) 28/17 1.647:1
4) 27/20 1.35:1
5) 24/21 1.142:1

FD Options
54/13 4.154:1
53/12 4.417:1
57/12 4.75:1
Gadzukes, someone call MSport, their car only does 101 mph they are never going to win anything. I mean the R2 Fiesta is so special in every other respect that it somehow makes up for the wrong gearing, how can it not go 120 it's unfathomable.......

Predictably about 15.5 mph per 1000 in top gear..
Add 1 more thousand Are Pea Ems, silly goose.
She only goes 6500........as per dem who makes it!
What? da fuq? The street car? the Wawwy caw? A modern 1600 that only does 6500?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
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