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VW Suspension geometry question

Posted by SideburnsSteve 
SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
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VW Suspension geometry question
May 25, 2016 05:17PM
Hey Guys,

I dunno if this is a good question or not. But its been bugging me for a while now, like that bogger you just cant reach and its stuck and sometimes makes a whistle sound....so annoying...., and I cant seem to find any info about it. Maybe cause everyone else knows the answer already...

So, in regards to lowering a car for track or tarmac rally...and the control arms are now pointing upwards. Do people just leave it that way? Or is there a way to correct it like drop spindles made by H2Sport for the mk4 platrform? Or....?

Ive done a few track days in lowered mk2's and 3's. Seems ok. But is there a better way?

Thanks guys!
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 25, 2016 08:20PM
Lower ball joint spacers.
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SideburnsSteve
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 25, 2016 08:31PM
Are they strong enough tho? And what about the tie rods then?
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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 25, 2016 09:03PM
Quote
SideburnsSteve
Are they strong enough tho? And what about the tie rods then?

Drill them out and look at COLEMANRACING.com at how they use a rod end and then a good--very good fitting--bolt and select fit spacers..

OR you could study the position and see if by hacking on the crossmember you could do a new--reinforced---inner pick up hole in the right place so the pivot point gives you horisontal arms in the static unladen position...Might be real easy like drill a hole thru, and zap a washer in place..trim off excess junk.



John Vanlandingham
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 25, 2016 10:46PM
Quote
SideburnsSteve
Are they strong enough tho? And what about the tie rods then?

There's a few different ways of lowering the ball joint. One is a bolt on spacer with an integrated pinch bolt. Drops it about an inch.
Another is a chunk of round stock that goes into the knuckle and is welded in place. The round stock then goes into a spherical bearing that's in the control arm.
http://www.scch-heads.com/viewpart.php?id=26

For the tie rod end, you can do the tie-rod flip kit. It's like $40. Or do as John suggests.
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Towona
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 26, 2016 04:35PM
Not related to the OP's question but still on topic... Anyone have any measurements for an unbent Mk2/3 rear beam?



Runamuck Rally
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 26, 2016 04:40PM
Quote
Towona
Not related to the OP's question but still on topic... Anyone have any measurements for an unbent Mk2/3 rear beam?

This made me chuckle, a lot.
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danster
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 26, 2016 05:09PM
Quote
Towona
Not related to the OP's question but still on topic... Anyone have any measurements for an unbent Mk2/3 rear beam?

There are a few different widths. What specific beam do you want measured.
I guess you are talking the width between the flat faces where the stubs bolt on to.

A link back to a time when forums tried to be helpful...

http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?138484-Rear-axle-back-plate-to-back-plate-dimensions



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2016 05:13PM by danster.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 26, 2016 05:58PM
Quote
Towona
Not related to the OP's question but still on topic... Anyone have any measurements for an unbent Mk2/3 rear beam?

There are none..alas



John Vanlandingham
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SideburnsSteve
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 26, 2016 08:30PM
All good. Curious about the measurements too lol.

Thanks for the info about the geometry guys. I will do my research!

I have one more question now ... how important is it to have the corrected geometry? Is it worth all the work? Guys says the mk4 platform benefits massively from the drop spindles. Does the mk2/3 benifit a lot also?

Thanks again!
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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 27, 2016 12:49PM
Quote
SideburnsSteve
All good. Curious about the measurements too lol.

Thanks for the info about the geometry guys. I will do my research!

I have one more question now ... how important is it to have the corrected geometry? Is it worth all the work? Guys says the mk4 platform benefits massively from the drop spindles. Does the mk2/3 benifit a lot also?

Thanks again!

It's only important if you care if the suspension moves but most--or to quote a tech at Bistein who should remain nameless "every fuckin guy always wants his fucking stuff WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too stiff EVERYBODY WHAT THE FAWK!" really don't care---it being more important to be able to brag about "yepp I'm running 650 pound from and 850 rear, yepp..Duh yep." On the 2300 lb car.

Look everything in suspension that pivots---it goes in arcs..
Strut plunges in and out and in and out..
You put it in put it out, and put in and out..
Wait! that reminds me..




It goes linear.
The marriage of linear and the stuff making arc best happens when we look (if it was a clock) at the arc in the most linear part say bewtween 2 O'clock and 4 O'clock
See? and see the reason Dubya Arsey cars have such wide track and looooooooooooooooong arms?

So look at the arc at around 1 O'clock..Say start with lower arm at 2 O'clock. Hit bump.Struts wants to go UP but arm is going up but same time INWARD..whetwe call "across the top of the arc. Draw a simple sketch and draw arrows strut ^ and arm arcing inward so


See the problem? Big bind. bad movement.
How do you account for big bending load?

But for 99% of boys getting the look right, lowered car is more important the having good roll center and suspension which works.
Because if low then




Oh don't forget to paint your wheels black.



John Vanlandingham
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Towona
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 27, 2016 02:55PM
Yes, I suppose you guys have a point about that... Maybe I could have phrased the question, to ask about how to know how bent the rear beam is. Danster's link will work



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SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 27, 2016 06:42PM
I gotta say John, I love your answers!!! Can we be friends!?
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 27, 2016 07:35PM
Quote
Towona
Yes, I suppose you guys have a point about that... Maybe I could have phrased the question, to ask about how to know how bent the rear beam is. Danster's link will work

Alignment rack or toe plates and tape measures are probably the most accurate way.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: VW Suspension geometry question
May 27, 2016 08:40PM
Quote
SideburnsSteve
I gotta say John, I love your answers!!! Can we be friends!?

Sure... but keep your hands to yourself! I'm promised to another.

As for checking the rear beam--ya doan need "accuracy". You need to know if the flimsy piece of cack is bent..

More piccies:
(cheap and simple)

Find one of these



And one a deeze:


A big 'un


Tie the string some where on the HORISONTAL arm at some known point, say 100mm
Or maybe 4 inches
With the one hand place the vertical part against the hub face..

The plumb bob in this dimension anyway is going to hang perfectly vertically...

Now with you other hand hold another ruler and measure out to the tip of the plumb bob. Best to use same units like mm or inches...
Read off.. If it haint 100mm then you have something bent..

This assumes the car is on level ground..


Of course if'n I's wuz youse, I'd already be planning on then checking if its that little poxy POS bolt on stub axle..
When of the better Norf American drivers we've ever seen, John Nichols from not so far out of Sheerbrooke to me he tended to bend those bolt on things constantly, like 1 or 2 per event



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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