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Why Not an S197 Mustang?

Posted by NONACK 
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 01, 2016 08:12PM
Dear Robert.
Let me use my memory here...
Engine was used of unknown condition.
Six events, around 2500 miles of race and testing. Multiple events with very very high temps until Idaho when hood was removed.
Engine that doesn't belong in a backhoe.

Sound about right?

Lest us not forget Idaho was won overall by a nearly stock BMW M3 also.



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wvonkessler
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 01, 2016 08:37PM
Quote
mhooper
If I was looking at new RWD V8s id take a peak under the GTO to see what could be done.

If you were, according to Jari, the GTO is an evolution of the Opel Manta/Ascona 400. Could be a lot of fun, plus, of course, the whole Australian V8 Mad Max thing.



"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?"
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 01, 2016 11:11PM
An S197 -could- be a good choice. We've race prepped quite a few. Typical weight for a stripped car with a cage, two seats, stock exhaust, racing suspension tires and wheels, stock huge brakes and updated cooling turns out to be a little more than 3350. Skid plates will add some more weight, as will a spare tire and tools.



The suspension is fairly strong. The tub is incredibly strong and stiff. The later engines are very good (Coyote V8 and 300-ish hp V6), the transmisisons are horrible but fixes exist. The rear end is an 8.8 with all the differentials available for it. There is already a huge aftermarket for it, so arms, bushings, and suspension is available. Though rally suspension isn't an off-the-shelf item. Weak points are going to be the huge amount of electrical integration and potentially the electric steering rack on the later cars.

But is it better than other options? Maybe. Maybe it's easier to start with. And easier to keep going. But it won't be easier to keep the electrics repaired, even if the chassis is stout. Swapping the entire wiring harness out for a racing harness with standalone engine support would be the right way to go, but that just adds to the work of prepping the car.



Jason McDaniel
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 02, 2016 01:29AM
Quote
NoCoast
Dear Robert.
Let me use my memory here...
Engine was used of unknown condition.
Six events, around 2500 miles of race and testing. Multiple events with very very high temps until Idaho when hood was removed.
Engine that doesn't belong in a backhoe.

Sound about right?

Lest us not forget Idaho was won overall by a nearly stock BMW M3 also.

Used engine just dropped in? No tear down for look-see?
2500 miles? a couple of thousand test miles?
Then why did the trans break 2x? Why the chronic overheating?
Grant, you must know the answers..You're the man.



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NONACK
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 02, 2016 04:46AM
Thanks for the shared first hand experience, Jason! I'm assuming you work at Vorshlag, I visited last time I was in Dallas for work and saw some cool cars but didn't get to meet people. Maybe I'll file this one under "if a car happens to fall into my lap" rather than something to actively pursue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2016 04:48AM by NONACK.
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wvonkessler
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 02, 2016 10:48AM
http://web.archive.org/web/20061222221935/http://www.fordracingparts.com/mustang/specifications.asp



"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?"
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mhooper
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 02, 2016 11:10AM
Just reallized Ive seen newer mustang on stage... Ojibwe Max attack video had mustang and I think Lauchlin battling it out... can't remember driver in mustang but it was definately a name I recognized at the time... Red car... Dangit what his name...

I think the most expensive thing bout running a car like that is tires... Yes power is good and easily makes up for weight on paper... but its gonna take a lot of tires to make that equation work.
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Wilson von Kessler
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 02, 2016 12:51PM
https://vimeo.com/7443390


Quote
mhooper
Just reallized Ive seen newer mustang on stage... Ojibwe Max attack video had mustang and I think Lauchlin battling it out... can't remember driver in mustang but it was definately a name I recognized at the time... Red car... Dangit what his name...

I think the most expensive thing bout running a car like that is tires... Yes power is good and easily makes up for weight on paper... but its gonna take a lot of tires to make that equation work.



"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?"
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NoCoast
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 02, 2016 01:48PM
Mark Utecht was in the Mustang. Won some stages overall at Idaho 2009.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 02, 2016 01:57PM
Quote
mhooper


I think the most expensive thing bout running a car like that is tires... Yes power is good and easily makes up for weight on paper... but its gonna take a lot of tires to make that equation work.

This comes to mind from another thread, one that the subject had veered off onto wood bikes.

Quote
ElectroTech
That's why I say the KDX, modern enough suspension and brakes, awesome power spread for a 2-stroke. Best bike I ever owned was a Yamaha DT200, from a fast long trail ride perspective it was awesome, plenty of power to loft the front wheel when you needed but a mellow hit. It was lacking in the suspension department, and of course like all things good on 2 wheels or 4 you couldn't get the new(er) better suspended version here. Manufacturers here are forced to cater to what people think they want, elsewhere it's more about what is needed to get the job done. The DT230 never hit our shores, such a pity. My 450 EXC was an awesome bike, but not something you could ride all day, too tall, too much power and too stiff.

Interesting comments all the way from OZ, a country not noted for the most searing intellectural exxtremes but rather more "just ordinary dumb excesses"

https://transmoto.com.au/rider-feedback-450exc-vs-wr450f/

It says right in the intro:

Quote

"------>Despite the fact that many blokes would be far better off aboard a more manageable 250 or 350cc enduro machine,<---------

Australian riders routinely prioritise horsepower above all else. Which is why the 450cc enduro bike segment has attracted the lion’s share of money spent on dirt bikes in this country for years.

Routinely at or near the top of those sales charts have been the 450cc enduro models from Yamaha and KTM – two long-time rivals for the Australian consumers’ hard-earned dollar and for race titles"

Australians may be somewhere between a bunch of Texans and a buncha lager-louts, but there SEEMS to be more physicality there and thus a bit of sense...

North America on the other hand-----:690-900cc....(shakes head)...


So the analogous thing "while most of the word seems to have heaps of fun in 2 liter or 2,3 liter cars and many go fast enough to makes of squeal like schoolgirls, cars 880-1100 kg...
even in fast wide countries like Finland....


I reckon I'll look into a 1500 kg car with a big V6...."

Funny thing is when some salty ol sea dog was lecturing us on why the use Volvos in Sweden and some in Finland and Norway and he said "Because that's what they have there!" making clear he believed there were no Mustangs..
Click klack search and that day in Sweden at first search there were 156 Mustangs of all models..

They have them but nobody uses them.. Why?



John Vanlandingham
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 02, 2016 01:58PM
Quote
NoCoast
Mark Utecht was in the Mustang. Won some stages overall at Idaho 2009.

Yes won some overall..

And did waaaaaaaaay mid-pack on others. The ones with turns.



John Vanlandingham
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modernbeat
Jason McDaniel
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 02, 2016 03:46PM
Quote
NONACK
Thanks for the shared first hand experience, Jason! I'm assuming you work at Vorshlag...

Yes, I'm a lead there. I do the lion's share of the design work.

We don't get to do much rally stuff. Not enough call for it in Texas. But I have done work on rally cars, and lots and lots of S197 Mustangs.



Jason McDaniel
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ElectroTech
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Re: Why Not an S197 Mustang?
July 04, 2016 03:35PM
I see other big roadblocks. What are you going to do about brakes? Even the V6 have to run 17" wheels, it's an 11.5" disk but the calipers are huge. Some potential for weight reduction on both ends in that respect. Sway bars are massive, hood is ridiculous. All the crap that makes the 60/40 split rear work and the associated bracing under the seats. AC stuff falling off, the damn plenum/controls/fan/condenser weigh a ton. Now find one with a blown motor, put in a 4cyl turbo and a better spaced gearbox.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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