Construction Zone
Don\
Welcome! Log In Register

Advanced

Cage construction questions

Posted by dreamsofjvl 
dreamsofjvl
Sancho Panza
Elite Moderator
Join Date: 06/30/2016
Posts: 131


Cage construction questions
July 01, 2016 01:24PM
I've been looking over the rules in the CARS and RA regs lately about how they spec the cage requirements.

I am sure I am confused, but are most cages in North America overbuilt? The rules usually say something like "must conform to fia appendix j" or section 253. It seems like cages that are offered in Europe don't have a lot of bars that you see in North America, but are stated to meet "appendix j/section 253"

As a driver now, perusing the rules for my then 5 minutes makes my eyes glaze over, but I am really curious smiling smiley
Please Login or Register to post a reply
fliz
Chad Eixenberger
Elite Moderator
Location: Grafton, WI
Join Date: 02/01/2007
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 484

Rally Car:
1988 VW Golf #687


Re: Cage construction questions
July 01, 2016 01:39PM
You know, if you want to listen to John rant, you could just call him.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
Mod Moderator
Location: Portland , Or
Join Date: 08/15/2010
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 1,208

Rally Car:
MK2 VW GTI



Re: Cage construction questions
July 01, 2016 01:45PM
A lot of cages are overbuilt.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
Professional Moderator
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: Cage construction questions
July 01, 2016 04:06PM
The issue are the statements, "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2002", "cars
homologated as from 01.01.2007", "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2005", "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2006", "cars homologated as from 01.01.2014", "homologated as from 01.01.2001"

US entities require all cars meet cage requirements equivalent to cars homologated from the most recent specification. Well, it's a grey area with NRS kinda as they do allow cages built to FIA 253 certification so if you can find your homologation papers you could build a simpler cage and be within the rules. However, seeing as I've heard of no less than three scrutineers giving designs within the most recent ruleset shit, I think it's not worth the head ache.

RA 5.5.A.2 - Safety cages that meet the specifications (for new homologations) of current FIA Appendix J Article 25.
Implies that you must always use the newest rule.

Whereas the FIA allows a lower spec on the older models, for example, E36 BMW homologation could be 1995, GC Impreza could be 1993, Merkur/Ford Sierra could be 1987. The older cars are allowed a simpler cage design overseas.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Infallible Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,986

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Cage construction questions
July 01, 2016 06:34PM
Quote
NoCoast
The issue are the statements, "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2002", "cars
homologated as from 01.01.2007", "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2005", "Cars homologated as from 01.01.2006", "cars homologated as from 01.01.2014", "homologated as from 01.01.2001"

US entities require all cars meet cage requirements equivalent to cars homologated from the most recent specification. Well, it's a grey area with NRS kinda as they do allow cages built to FIA 253 certification so if you can find your homologation papers you could build a simpler cage and be within the rules. However, seeing as I've heard of no less than three scrutineers giving designs within the most recent ruleset shit, I think it's not worth the head ache.

RA 5.5.A.2 - Safety cages that meet the specifications (for new homologations) of current FIA Appendix J Article 25.
Implies that you must always use the newest rule.

Whereas the FIA allows a lower spec on the older models, for example, E36 BMW homologation could be 1995, GC Impreza could be 1993, Merkur/Ford Sierra could be 1987. The older cars are allowed a simpler cage design overseas.

Depends. Varies coountry to country and in Sweden for example, VOC has its min requirements, Group E (stock stock stock Economy) has its rules, Appendix K Histroic has its min, 2wd "Grupp H" is far stricter---last year or so..

Suffice it to say, requiring the absolute latest FULL WRC spec for cars with fractions of the performance is stupid..and it has been PRIMARILY a matter of some people just digging in their heels to assert authority. Clearly.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
tdrrally
edward mucklow
Senior Moderator
Location: charleston,wv
Join Date: 05/31/2011
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 736

Rally Car:
ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: Cage construction questions
July 02, 2016 01:08PM
john i agree with you
the WRC spec cage has also redirected many people to go road racing too



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
alkun
Albert Kun
Godlike Moderator
Location: SF Ca.
Join Date: 01/07/2008
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 1,732

Rally Car:
volvo 242


Re: Cage construction questions
July 04, 2016 02:32PM
When my car stopped tumbling and dropped out of the sky onto the windshield at Oregon Trail that one time, I did not feel like the roll cage was overbuilt...
Please Login or Register to post a reply
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
Professional Moderator
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: Cage construction questions
July 04, 2016 03:02PM
Quote
tdrrally
john i agree with you
the WRC spec cage has also redirected many people to go road racing too

The spec isn't really extraneous. Rally isn't easy, road racing is, comparatively. Rally takes a level of perseverance that isn't present in most of the population. Just look at the shear number of people with build threads here that have never seen a stage.
I've been having too much fun last the years with my E36. 23+ hours of road racing, three gravel hill climbs, a handful of testing days both track and gravel. To take this car to a rally I would have an additional list of 20-30 items. Many are not simple bolt or nut things and require fab, welding, electrical, and mechanical skills.
Anyone can buy a street car and go race in time attack.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Infallible Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,986

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Cage construction questions
July 05, 2016 11:05AM
Quote
NoCoast
Quote
tdrrally
john i agree with you
the WRC spec cage has also redirected many people to go road racing too

The spec isn't really extraneous. Rally isn't easy, road racing is, comparatively. Rally takes a level of perseverance that isn't present in most of the population. Just look at the shear number of people with build threads here that have never seen a stage.



But I do agree...--especially the comparative part.

Just seems a guy with a grand total of --is it really just 3? ---3 times driving with 2 different cars over a 10 or 12 year period would be a little chaste in writing so much supposedly based on experience---and very much chaste about anything that could be said about people not finishing projects...



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Not Trolling
Keith Morison
Junior Moderator
Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: 09/15/2015
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 267



Re: Cage construction questions
July 05, 2016 11:18AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Just seems a guy with a grand total of --is it really just 3? ---3 times driving with 2 different cars over a 10 or 12 year period would be a little chaste in writing so much supposedly based on experience---and very much chaste about anything that could be said about people not finishing projects...

Grant actually is the perfect person to talk about both of these situations since he has chosen other motorsports over rally and knows why, AND has sold off (or is trying to sell off) an unfinished rebuild project rather than finishing it or letting it languish.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Not Trolling
Keith Morison
Junior Moderator
Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: 09/15/2015
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 267



Re: Cage construction questions
July 05, 2016 12:06PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Suffice it to say, requiring the absolute latest FULL WRC spec for cars with fractions of the performance is stupid..and it has been PRIMARILY a matter of some people just digging in their heels to assert authority. Clearly.

That would be stupid.
Fortunatley CARS, RA, and NASA only require cages that meet Appendix J 253-8, which is the Group A/N spec for cages. It is also worth noting that the top level cars in North America (Rocket/VTCar/CanJam) likely have every bit the potential of a 2016 spec WRC car.

I had an interesting conversation with someone a while ago about homologated cages as well. It centered around the fact that there were differences in the cages for R2 and R5 fiestas, and that a Fiesta ST likely was closer in performance to an R5 than a R2, but could run the 'weaker' cage legally.

At the end of the day, I've been in (and have seen) enough crashes that I know cages are not someplace to be skimped on. Conversely, I also believe there is such a thing as overbuilding a cage to the point of it becoming dangerous to the occupants.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
tdrrally
edward mucklow
Senior Moderator
Location: charleston,wv
Join Date: 05/31/2011
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 736

Rally Car:
ford mustang LX 5.0, 1973 VW Beetle



Re: Cage construction questions
July 05, 2016 12:57PM
http://www.cusco.co.jp/en/pdf/FIA%20Rollcage%20FT86%20BRZ.pdf

not inexpensive but interesting.



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
Mod Moderator
Location: Portland , Or
Join Date: 08/15/2010
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 1,208

Rally Car:
MK2 VW GTI



Re: Cage construction questions
July 05, 2016 01:27PM
Quote
Not Trolling
Conversely, I also believe there is such a thing as overbuilding a cage to the point of it becoming dangerous to the occupants.

This is what I was getting at.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
Professional Moderator
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: Cage construction questions
July 05, 2016 02:15PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Just seems a guy with a grand total of --is it really just 3? ---3 times driving with 2 different cars over a 10 or 12 year period would be a little chaste in writing so much supposedly based on experience---and very much chaste about anything that could be said about people not finishing projects...

I think only two rallies driven, three as codriver and five seasons of hill climbs, one as a codriver. Three endurance road race events, around 23 hours. Service crew for too many to count off top of head. Up to three cars at a time, 100% finish record since our last DNF in 2005.

I regret nothing. I could have done the full national championship with my capital contributions to Rally.Build in the last 18 months but am investing it in the sport in a different way. We have gone from three cars to nearly 20 active here. Every Colorado customer you have except one has come from my direct referral. We gave over $1000 in cash to local teams last year.
Every month I wonder if I should stick to smarter expenditures/investments and race more. I persevere and choose growth over self satisfaction. So yes, I've still only driven in two events and if that is your metric for whatever then discount anything I say. Now I need a nap. Late night last night with new puppy, early morning with kids, and late shop night ahead. Cold turkey on cigs and beer 7 days ago so have been on edge and tiredness does not help. Blew up on a security guard over stupid glow sticks last night.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Infallible Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,986

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Cage construction questions
July 05, 2016 03:34PM
Quote
Not Trolling

I had an interesting conversation with someone (? did you forget their name? I've had many interesting conversations with people about homologated cages...2 actually even knew something..Doubtless because they actually made homologated cages. Imagine that) a while ago about homologated cages as well. It centered around the fact that there were differences in the cages for R2 and R5 fiestas, and that a Fiesta ST likely was closer in performance to an R5 than a R2, but could run the 'weaker' cage legally.

At the end of the day, I've been in (and have seen) enough crashes that I know cages are not someplace to be skimped on. Conversely, I also believe there is such a thing as overbuilding a cage to the point of it becoming dangerous to the occupants.

Fortunatley CARS, RA, and NASA only require cages that meet Appendix J 253-8

I don't think any sane person would suggest "skimping" on a cage.. And I don't think that I've ever seen anybody suggesting that...

And I would not be particularly adverse to the whole of Art 253 being the template...
But--and you know thus full well----intentionally ignoring all the sections up to
"For cars first homologated 1 Jan 2007 and onward, the following elements are required"

and intentionally pretending the perfectly acceptable specs applicable PRIOR to that doesn't exist or are inadequate (despite them mandating much safer cages that we in North America had for decades---and oddly had few cages collapse), that is a lot to expect people to swallow whole.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login