Yep. We're not sure if we can tune the ECU with an Access Port tuner or such. The Ford Performance guy wouldn't tell me outright, but it should be doable since the ECUs are "Very, very similar." AFR can also be monitored over the OBD2 reader and gauge tablet. They look normal when I've driven it, though I can't remember what they were. Rich enough that you can see black exhaust on hard accel when it's floored. I'll look into the piston rings when I tear the bottom ends apart this weekend. Good news is that rebuilding with Mahle, Wiseco, and other forged pistons is cheaper than another junkyard motor. It will also give us a good time to have the crankshaft and crank sprockets keyed. The friction washers are scary! |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
You don't think there's any choice? Like some sensible 230 hp with wide , smooth powerband choice? Ya know, something quite a number of very experienced WRC level engine development guys all say "220--230 is enough, after than worry about delivery".. Who knows but I tend to agree with them considering the various ones I asked had all been making WRC level development stuff since I was maybe 20 (1972) Maybe there was no option for something safe and reasonable around 220-230, Then it would have been smarter to make another choice. And have the margin of safety. Blowing up motors repeatedly and pissing away entry fees, motels, etc because of that doesn't seem like a sustainable plan.. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Pete Pete Remner Senior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
That's.... surprising. Either your junkyard motors are expensive or those companies are selling pistons cheap. I wouldn't doubt that the OE pistons, if forged, are forged from a more brittle alloy. The old-school forgings you could hammer into a banana shape without cracking also need more clearance, and besides oil consumption and ringseal problems that creates, people don't want their cute-ute to have loads of piston slap. If they wanted that, they'd have bought a Forester
It seems to work just fine on the street car level. As a bonus, assembling the engine is REALLY easy, just put the chains on wherever, put the timing cover on, install the damper, and unlock the cam and crank. On the other hand, we've found that Chevy LS engines will loosen the damper when they start to get over 450 or so HP so we pin them all, so maye keyways ain't such a bad idea, at least on the crankshaft. Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. |
b00sted David Barrett Ultra Moderator Location: Chicago, IL Join Date: 10/21/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 216 |
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b00sted David Barrett Ultra Moderator Location: Chicago, IL Join Date: 10/21/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 216 |
Interesting, I haven't seen that happen, but that's in drag applications. But we also use the ARP bolt and CRANK that thing on tight. Now, welding the reluctor wheel on is always a good idea when the bottom end is being built. |
b00sted David Barrett Ultra Moderator Location: Chicago, IL Join Date: 10/21/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 216 |
Is the OEM oxygen sensor a wideband or narrowband? |
Totally agree with this. The quench pads are not the best. The ECU uses the stock OEM wideband. |
MarkHille Mark Hille Senior Moderator Location: The hills of CT Join Date: 10/04/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 135 Rally Car: I have two crap boxes |
My lima is on the rich side and I've never seen black smoke (ok I totally have but not when things were working right haha. If only that guy had posted that video to youtube.....). Point is, I would double check that you aren't burning oil because that will lower the anti knock ability of your fuel in short order. It may have been catastrophic incidences for both motors but I would be willing to bet the damage may have been somewhat cumulative. I leak down test before and after each rally partly because it only takes 20 minutes on the lima and partly because I wouldn't want to blow my motor during recce. Because you are rebuilding and are going to be a prudent little builder and do leak down to make sure those new rings are sealing, you will have great starting point data to be able to monitor engine condition as races occur. Might be worth to check it every once in a while. Might not be... Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2016 11:27AM by MarkHille. |
Leak down test, that would be tooo easy!
After getting a chance to look at the blocks, they are toasted. The steel liners somehow got plasma arc'd away at the top... beyond the biggest overbore size (.020in). Looks like another used motor, but this time actually do a compression test and a leak down from time-to-time. Maybe toss some fuel additive in there and pray... |
Pete Pete Remner Senior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
The last one we worked on before we started pinning them as a matter of course never saw the dragstrip, or even much at all except street tuning. The water pump suffered from infant mortality and when I had the front of the vehicle apart to change it, I noticed the crank bolt had backed out! That bolt is a serious mofo, too. What is it, 120ft-lb plus 240 degrees? It's tighter than my 2131TiMax can manage. I mark the balancer and the bolt and do the belt wrap method to hold the crank, and stick a 6 foot pipe on my breaker bar. Like loosening a Mazda rotary flywheel nut but in reverse Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. |
Pete Pete Remner Senior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
Most modern engines' stock tunes, even nonturbo, can blow soot at WOT, although it's hard to see unless the conditions are right. "Normal" power enrichment on those GM V8s is in the 1.25 range (dammit, I can not remember the term... it's the inverse of lambda) before any time based multipliers. Throw all the fuel in the world down the gullet in order to keep the chambers cool and make the cats go to sleep so they don't melt down. Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. |
b00sted David Barrett Ultra Moderator Location: Chicago, IL Join Date: 10/21/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 216 |
We used to do the same. Put the car up on a lift and hang from a breaker bar to get the factory bolt to break lose. Our badass impact would never get it. |
MarkHille Mark Hille Senior Moderator Location: The hills of CT Join Date: 10/04/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 135 Rally Car: I have two crap boxes |
This is my point. If you look back and see smoke on a regular basis I would be making sure you aren't burning oil. That's all. 1.25 EQ is around 11.5 AFR which is a decent spot for the motors we are talking about. Richer= more cool and potentially safer but at some point you are giving up power and what is the point of trying to run so much boost if you are just giving up power by being rich? That is why water injection is even a thing. Because you can make more power with the proper AFR and water to cool the charge/chamber than you can by just using fuel. I tried water injection for 2 races. I was hoping it would help keep coolant and oil temps lower. It didn't do anything of the sort as far as I'm concerned....then again, I wasn't experiencing detonation. A decent sized oil cooler with some air flow did though. It made a huge difference. So much more of a difference than anything else I tried. Might not be necessary for a non turbo car but for a turbo car I highly recommend it. As far as charge temp goes you are only going to do so much with intercooling. A small one will not cool as well but won't heat soak. A big one will cool better but may heat soak and not be worth anything after a while (and block your radiator!). The simple solution is to lower the boost. A simple water injection setup might help keep you from knocking by giving you a little more buffer room if 91 and octane booster isn't cutting it but the added complexity is daunting to some and is it really worth it for the power? Lower boost (and timing?)....I.E. the stock ECU....is it the safer of the 2? |
Pete Pete Remner Senior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
That is for a nonturbo engine. And that is the PRIMARY enrichment, there are additional ones that come in to play as necessary! "Why so rich?" Because you want to tune to run at WOT more or less forever after all of the fluids are fully heat saturated. Leaner for more power is great if you're on a dragstrip. That mentality seems to be ultra-prevalent in the Audi world, people like to see how lean they can run the engines under heavy boost. It's great that you got five more horsepower, but what is that doing to your EGTs especially when knock retard starts pulling all the timing out. The factory turbo engines I've paid attention to run much richer than a 1.25 equivalence ratio when under heavy boost. Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2016 11:56AM by Pete. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
What would happen if everybody thought that way, Yossarian? Ozzie Bredan Reeves in a little n.a. 1600 can and did beat every turbo awd car in the country 'cept Block and Higgins who had at minimum over twice the HP and 3 times the torque.. Ned Zedder Haydon Paddon in a 40 year old n.a. 1600 on a fast and open NZ Rally Championship event beat EVERY turbo AWD car including "guest star" Block..Beat 'em all on straight SS times. And I think we all know that NZ rally Championship is just a teeenie bit faster and more depth than US or Canajian series.. A reasoning person would ask how could these guys with 160 hp or 210 hp beat all those guys? And a reasoning person would wonder why guys with far less competition are advised and believe they need 350 or whatever this weeks figure is?... Especially when it seems that doing that is beyond their technical skills to keep the thing together. And very possibly beyond the skills to utilise the power properly... This many failures of first Limas and then Duratecs kinda make the question kind of central John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |