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The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread

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Robert Culbertson
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 01, 2016 08:18PM
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Pete

The tunes in question come straight from Ford, I think.

Yep. We're not sure if we can tune the ECU with an Access Port tuner or such. The Ford Performance guy wouldn't tell me outright, but it should be doable since the ECUs are "Very, very similar."

AFR can also be monitored over the OBD2 reader and gauge tablet. They look normal when I've driven it, though I can't remember what they were. Rich enough that you can see black exhaust on hard accel when it's floored.

I'll look into the piston rings when I tear the bottom ends apart this weekend. Good news is that rebuilding with Mahle, Wiseco, and other forged pistons is cheaper than another junkyard motor. It will also give us a good time to have the crankshaft and crank sprockets keyed. The friction washers are scary!
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 01, 2016 09:54PM
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Pete
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john vanlandingham
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dreamsofjvl
I don't quite understand why the tune is "bad". From the factory, these motors make great, safe power. What so different here?

Greed?
Poor advice?
Inexperience?
American fixation with MOAR POWERZ...?
Because we can?

The tunes in question come straight from Ford, I think.

You don't think there's any choice? Like some sensible 230 hp with wide , smooth powerband choice? Ya know, something quite a number of very experienced WRC level engine development guys all say "220--230 is enough, after than worry about delivery"..
Who knows but I tend to agree with them considering the various ones I asked had all been making WRC level development stuff since I was maybe 20 (1972)
Maybe there was no option for something safe and reasonable around 220-230,

Then it would have been smarter to make another choice.
And have the margin of safety.
Blowing up motors repeatedly and pissing away entry fees, motels, etc because of that doesn't seem like a sustainable plan..



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Pete
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 02, 2016 04:47AM
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Robert Culbertson
Good news is that rebuilding with Mahle, Wiseco, and other forged pistons is cheaper than another junkyard motor.

That's.... surprising. Either your junkyard motors are expensive or those companies are selling pistons cheap.

I wouldn't doubt that the OE pistons, if forged, are forged from a more brittle alloy. The old-school forgings you could hammer into a banana shape without cracking also need more clearance, and besides oil consumption and ringseal problems that creates, people don't want their cute-ute to have loads of piston slap. If they wanted that, they'd have bought a Forester drinking smiley

Quote

It will also give us a good time to have the crankshaft and crank sprockets keyed. The friction washers are scary!

It seems to work just fine on the street car level. As a bonus, assembling the engine is REALLY easy, just put the chains on wherever, put the timing cover on, install the damper, and unlock the cam and crank.

On the other hand, we've found that Chevy LS engines will loosen the damper when they start to get over 450 or so HP so we pin them all, so maye keyways ain't such a bad idea, at least on the crankshaft.



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b00sted
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 06, 2016 11:35PM
That small amount of material between the edge of the piston and the valve-relief doesn't help(along with the hard edges). Heat is building up there and snowballing out of control until it melts down.
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 06, 2016 11:37PM
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Pete
On the other hand, we've found that Chevy LS engines will loosen the damper when they start to get over 450 or so HP so we pin them all, so maye keyways ain't such a bad idea, at least on the crankshaft.

Interesting, I haven't seen that happen, but that's in drag applications. But we also use the ARP bolt and CRANK that thing on tight.

Now, welding the reluctor wheel on is always a good idea when the bottom end is being built.
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 06, 2016 11:42PM
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Robert Culbertson
AFR can also be monitored over the OBD2 reader and gauge tablet. They look normal when I've driven it, though I can't remember what they were. Rich enough that you can see black exhaust on hard accel when it's floored.

Is the OEM oxygen sensor a wideband or narrowband?
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 07, 2016 11:56AM
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b00sted
That small amount of material between the edge of the piston and the valve-relief doesn't help(along with the hard edges). Heat is building up there and snowballing out of control until it melts down.

Totally agree with this. The quench pads are not the best.

The ECU uses the stock OEM wideband.
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MarkHille
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 09, 2016 06:48AM
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Robert Culbertson

Rich enough that you can see black exhaust on hard accel when it's floored.

My lima is on the rich side and I've never seen black smoke (ok I totally have but not when things were working right haha. If only that guy had posted that video to youtube.....). Point is, I would double check that you aren't burning oil because that will lower the anti knock ability of your fuel in short order.

It may have been catastrophic incidences for both motors but I would be willing to bet the damage may have been somewhat cumulative. I leak down test before and after each rally partly because it only takes 20 minutes on the lima and partly because I wouldn't want to blow my motor during recce.

Because you are rebuilding and are going to be a prudent little builder and do leak down to make sure those new rings are sealing, you will have great starting point data to be able to monitor engine condition as races occur. Might be worth to check it every once in a while. Might not be...smileys with beer



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2016 11:27AM by MarkHille.
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 09, 2016 11:17AM
Leak down test, that would be tooo easy!

After getting a chance to look at the blocks, they are toasted. The steel liners somehow got plasma arc'd away at the top... beyond the biggest overbore size (.020in).
Looks like another used motor, but this time actually do a compression test and a leak down from time-to-time.
Maybe toss some fuel additive in there and pray...
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Pete
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 09, 2016 06:56PM
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b00sted
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Pete
On the other hand, we've found that Chevy LS engines will loosen the damper when they start to get over 450 or so HP so we pin them all, so maye keyways ain't such a bad idea, at least on the crankshaft.

Interesting, I haven't seen that happen, but that's in drag applications. But we also use the ARP bolt and CRANK that thing on tight.

Now, welding the reluctor wheel on is always a good idea when the bottom end is being built.

The last one we worked on before we started pinning them as a matter of course never saw the dragstrip, or even much at all except street tuning. The water pump suffered from infant mortality and when I had the front of the vehicle apart to change it, I noticed the crank bolt had backed out!

That bolt is a serious mofo, too. What is it, 120ft-lb plus 240 degrees? It's tighter than my 2131TiMax can manage. I mark the balancer and the bolt and do the belt wrap method to hold the crank, and stick a 6 foot pipe on my breaker bar. Like loosening a Mazda rotary flywheel nut but in reverse smiling smiley



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Pete
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 09, 2016 07:05PM
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MarkHille
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Robert Culbertson

Rich enough that you can see black exhaust on hard accel when it's floored.

My lima is on the rich side and I've never seen black smoke (ok I totally have but not when things were working right haha. If only that guy had posted that video to youtube.....). Point is, I would double check that you aren't burning oil because that will lower the anti knock ability of your fuel in short order.

Most modern engines' stock tunes, even nonturbo, can blow soot at WOT, although it's hard to see unless the conditions are right. "Normal" power enrichment on those GM V8s is in the 1.25 range (dammit, I can not remember the term... it's the inverse of lambda) before any time based multipliers. Throw all the fuel in the world down the gullet in order to keep the chambers cool and make the cats go to sleep so they don't melt down.



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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 10, 2016 07:00PM
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Pete
The last one we worked on before we started pinning them as a matter of course never saw the dragstrip, or even much at all except street tuning. The water pump suffered from infant mortality and when I had the front of the vehicle apart to change it, I noticed the crank bolt had backed out!

That bolt is a serious mofo, too. What is it, 120ft-lb plus 240 degrees? It's tighter than my 2131TiMax can manage. I mark the balancer and the bolt and do the belt wrap method to hold the crank, and stick a 6 foot pipe on my breaker bar. Like loosening a Mazda rotary flywheel nut but in reverse smiling smiley

We used to do the same. Put the car up on a lift and hang from a breaker bar to get the factory bolt to break lose. Our badass impact would never get it.
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MarkHille
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 12, 2016 08:07AM
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Pete

Most modern engines' stock tunes, even nonturbo, can blow soot at WOT, although it's hard to see unless the conditions are right.

This is my point. If you look back and see smoke on a regular basis I would be making sure you aren't burning oil. That's all.

1.25 EQ is around 11.5 AFR which is a decent spot for the motors we are talking about. Richer= more cool and potentially safer but at some point you are giving up power and what is the point of trying to run so much boost if you are just giving up power by being rich? That is why water injection is even a thing. Because you can make more power with the proper AFR and water to cool the charge/chamber than you can by just using fuel. I tried water injection for 2 races. I was hoping it would help keep coolant and oil temps lower. It didn't do anything of the sort as far as I'm concerned....then again, I wasn't experiencing detonation. A decent sized oil cooler with some air flow did though. It made a huge difference. So much more of a difference than anything else I tried. Might not be necessary for a non turbo car but for a turbo car I highly recommend it.

As far as charge temp goes you are only going to do so much with intercooling. A small one will not cool as well but won't heat soak. A big one will cool better but may heat soak and not be worth anything after a while (and block your radiator!). The simple solution is to lower the boost. A simple water injection setup might help keep you from knocking by giving you a little more buffer room if 91 and octane booster isn't cutting it but the added complexity is daunting to some and is it really worth it for the power? Lower boost (and timing?)....I.E. the stock ECU....is it the safer of the 2?
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Pete
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 12, 2016 11:53AM
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MarkHille
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Pete

Most modern engines' stock tunes, even nonturbo, can blow soot at WOT, although it's hard to see unless the conditions are right.

This is my point. If you look back and see smoke on a regular basis I would be making sure you aren't burning oil. That's all.

1.25 EQ is around 11.5 AFR which is a decent spot for the motors we are talking about. Richer= more cool and potentially safer but at some point you are giving up power and what is the point of trying to run so much boost if you are just giving up power by being rich?

That is for a nonturbo engine. And that is the PRIMARY enrichment, there are additional ones that come in to play as necessary!

"Why so rich?" Because you want to tune to run at WOT more or less forever after all of the fluids are fully heat saturated. Leaner for more power is great if you're on a dragstrip. That mentality seems to be ultra-prevalent in the Audi world, people like to see how lean they can run the engines under heavy boost. It's great that you got five more horsepower, but what is that doing to your EGTs especially when knock retard starts pulling all the timing out.

The factory turbo engines I've paid attention to run much richer than a 1.25 equivalence ratio when under heavy boost.



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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2016 11:56AM by Pete.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: The oaf-ish-ul "why ecoboost goes boom" thread
December 12, 2016 04:52PM
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MarkHille
The simple solution is to lower the boost.

What would happen if everybody thought that way, Yossarian?


Ozzie Bredan Reeves in a little n.a. 1600 can and did beat every turbo awd car in the country 'cept Block and Higgins who had at minimum over twice the HP and 3 times the torque..

Ned Zedder Haydon Paddon in a 40 year old n.a. 1600 on a fast and open NZ Rally Championship event beat EVERY turbo AWD car including "guest star" Block..Beat 'em all on straight SS times.
And I think we all know that NZ rally Championship is just a teeenie bit faster and more depth than US or Canajian series..

A reasoning person would ask how could these guys with 160 hp or 210 hp beat all those guys?

And a reasoning person would wonder why guys with far less competition are advised and believe they need 350 or whatever this weeks figure is?...

Especially when it seems that doing that is beyond their technical skills to keep the thing together.

And very possibly beyond the skills to utilise the power properly...

This many failures of first Limas and then Duratecs kinda make the question kind of central



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