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Merkur rear beam and sta solutions

Posted by MarkHille 
tdrrally
edward mucklow
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 07:11AM
i am enjoying the discussion on this thread, i'm with John on this one overall but do agree there is always room for improvement.

has anyone looked into a complete redesign? i mean to say changing to something more modern, like the rear suspension from an early evo. It would still be a trailing arm but has control links to better maintain geometry through its travel. Or the MK3 supra rear suspension.

if you're going to fix it why not make better, i raced and or rallied Toyotas, Mitsubishis, BMWs and even a Datsun 510 with this basic type of rear suspension it does work and can be made to work well but it is a very old design with limits.

what about the live axle, like this M3 ;
http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/10/improving-legend-modern-e30-m3-rally-car/


for me its as much about the build as the rallying so i do see both side of the coin.



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2016 07:19AM by tdrrally.
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tdrrally
edward mucklow
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 07:25AM
btw this car looks like an M3 copy of a Toyota Celica TTC Grp B car



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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mekilljoydammit
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 10:12AM
It seems to me that, in big budget European stuff, whenever there was budget to do so, the factory built cars eventually moved to struts at all 4 corners, with the exception of a couple of the Group B cars which were wishbones. So, you know, once you get everything possible out of the existing suspension, go that way.

I dunno man. Live axle setups are nice and easy to figure out - Ford published their Escort book, everyone followed it, it works at a level of precision more or less anyone can do. IRS though, from what I came across looking at alternate Sierra rear setups, it sounds like it's not too hard to screw STA setups up enough to make them worse than the stock setup if you don't have alignment right or a bunch of other stuff. If there was a proven kit to drop a proven good strut rear suspension in I'd go for that (like if William's Focus RSF2000 thingie got done, troubleshot and proven out) but there isn't.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 11:54AM
Quote
mekilljoydammit
It seems to me that, in big budget European stuff, whenever there was budget to do so, the factory built cars eventually moved to struts at all 4 corners, with the exception of a couple of the Group B cars which were wishbones.

Actually think again.
Thinking back of ALL the GroupB cars, ALL were double unequal length a arms all 4 corners except: Audi all 4 corners and the front on Celicas...
And Audi was always in serious trouble in part because of that..Celica lacked grip being only RWD.





Quote

So, you know, once you get everything possible out of the existing suspension, go that way.

I dunno man. Live axle setups are nice and easy to figure out - Ford published their Escort book, everyone followed it, it works at a level of precision more or less anyone can do.

The point of the video.. THOSE guys are on stand geometry stuff, double skinned for strength, or in Group N, stock parts (although the guy contracted to run the official Group N thing said once when i was buying up some second hand things--3 ECU for 100GBP each--they split the trailing arms on the seam and welded in a CrMo H structure then welded them back up.

That's why I put a video or 3 door cars and not later Saphire 4x4s..one of the main points.



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 12:52PM
But we (collective NA rallyist) aren't that awesome, and we need all the help we can get. So what's wrong with spending a couple weekend and a $200 in materials to make something that works WAY better than stock?!
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mekilljoydammit
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 01:04PM
6R4 was strut and the Escort RS1700T was strut... not that either of those set the world on fire. Thought the 205T16 was too, but I was wrong. The more modern stuff probably is more concerned about cramming into a production uni body where it'd be too hard to cram a proper wishbone setup in; isn't anything fast after the Escort Wrc all strut?

That's all splitting hairs and walking though; agree with your point, bigger fish to fry.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 01:59PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
But we (collective NA rallyist) aren't that awesome, and we need all the help we can get. So what's wrong with spending a couple weekend and a $200 in materials to make something that works WAY better than stock?!

Because the subject is how to make what is there stronger.
The subject isn't "How much can one fap about some stuff in UK that costs thousands of bucks ---and which may bend as easily as stock stuff---but let's fap about it anyway how much better handling and how little camber and toe gain this OTHER stuff has"..

Because basically we aren't so fantastic---that we don't need to fap about how "we' can do so much better if we buy some fap-tastic stuff when what we have works "pretty damn good" when its straight and solid.

It is not the lack of better angle for the beam that is preventing you and Grant from driving better than those guys in the little video.



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edward mucklow
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 02:45PM
Do the E30 guys talk about their setup this much?



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 03:03PM
Quote
tdrrally
Do the E30 guys talk about their setup this much?

No but 99.999% of them are asphalt guys who just cram on 700-900 lb springs and that cures everything for them...if suspension doesn't move then there's no problems of a degree or 2 gain at full compression.

True fact, brah..



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MarkHille
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 03:14PM
Just for fun...All the magic is at 2:40.





I do think it is a bit funny how many spins that old video had (and that the "crack" car may have killed someone). At one point I remember watching that video and then watching an old escort video and it is apples to oranges but the escorts didn't seem to loop it out as much even though they were just as sideways. Mine has a very distinct point where there is just no saving it. Just don't cross that point and your fine. Cross it and you loop every time.
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edward mucklow
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 03:43PM
you are very correct, most of the E30s i worked on were road racers, with stiff springs, but my celica was a rally car , the only issue i had was the arc of the rear on the outside would make the wheelbase shorter but it seemed to make the car rotate a bit. i now understand why toyota used the live axle instead of the IRS.



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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Grant Hughes
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 04:28PM
Comprehension John. Note I said, paraphrased, "buy all the stock beams and arms you can find" and "will a six degree beam actually be any better on gravel?"
E36 is still the answer.
I think the E30 anfke is more like nine but that is a vague recollection



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MattP
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 06, 2016 10:07PM
Sorry I would of replied earlier, but was out rallying. Not sorry...

John, in the whole of NA there were only 42,000 Xr4Ti's sold over it's life time and of those only a tiny proportion were ever made into any sort of competition car i.e circuit or rally.
In Europe there were MILLIONS sold. In fact 1,299,993 were sold in the UK alone, and a tiny proportion of those were turned into competition cars, however that number is in all probability more than the entire number of Xr4Ti's EVER sold in NA.

Now given this and that the Europeans do actually know what they are doing with Rally development and Motorsport development in general over the past half century. I will hazard a guess that they know more about what makes a Sierra work better than you ever will, and more about what doesn't make a Sierra work. So given the many millions spent by development programs to make a Sierra go round corners and handle better, I would rather spend the money on a proven and fitted(many many many times) item to make the car work, than a stick my finger in the air guess from someone. These have been around for about the last 30 years, so in fact, since the beginning of drivers with Sierra's wanting better handling even the venerable Cosworth and RS 500 needed help in these areas.

I have seen the suspension settings from Ford Motorsports regarding the strut lengths, spring rates, camber and toe settings for the likes of Mark Lovell, Ari V, Stig B, Russell Brookes et.al, now I am, again, more likely to use these numbers than the settings of a friend of a friend. Why because if they are good enough for the likes of the these drivers then they are damn fine for a driver like myself, in fact for any NA driver for that matter.

Now everyone here in NA can go and have a huddle in a corner and make themselves believe that they alone will try and resolve their suspension and handling issues, or they can look out side of this continent and see what the rest of the world has done for development work and either buy the already proven technology, copy exactly what is already proven technology or what I think is more likely to happen ignore the rest of the world and spend the next "X" years trying to engineer or re-engineer a fix. Why reinvent the wheel when someone with more knowledge, a deeper pocket and better resources has already done it for you.



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Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 07, 2016 01:57AM
Quote
MattP
Sorry I would of replied earlier, but was out rallying. Not sorry...

John, in the whole of NA there were only 42,000 Xr4Ti's sold over it's life time and of those only a tiny proportion were ever made into any sort of competition car i.e circuit or rally.
In Europe there were MILLIONS sold. In fact 1,299,993 were sold in the UK alone, and a tiny proportion of those were turned into competition cars, however that number is in all probability more than the entire number of Xr4Ti's EVER sold in NA.

Now given this and that the Europeans do actually know what they are doing with Rally development and Motorsport development in general over the past half century. I will hazard a guess that they know more about what makes a Sierra work better than you ever will, and more about what doesn't make a Sierra work. So given the many millions spent by development programs to make a Sierra go round corners and handle better, I would rather spend the money on a proven and fitted(many many many times) item to make the car work, than a stick my finger in the air guess from someone. These have been around for about the last 30 years, so in fact, since the beginning of drivers with Sierra's wanting better handling even the venerable Cosworth and RS 500 needed help in these areas.

I have seen the suspension settings from Ford Motorsports regarding the strut lengths, spring rates, camber and toe settings for the likes of Mark Lovell, Ari V, Stig B, Russell Brookes et.al, now I am, again, more likely to use these numbers than the settings of a friend of a friend. Why because if they are good enough for the likes of the these drivers then they are damn fine for a driver like myself, in fact for any NA driver for that matter*.

Now everyone here in NA can go and have a huddle in a corner and make themselves believe that they alone will try and resolve their suspension and handling issues, or they can look out side of this continent and see what the rest of the world has done for development work and either buy the already proven technology, copy exactly what is already proven technology or what I think is more likely to happen ignore the rest of the world and spend the next "X" years trying to engineer or re-engineer a fix. Why reinvent the wheel when someone with more knowledge, a deeper pocket and better resources has already done it for you?.


If you slow down and try thinking, what you have said is exactly what I have been saying siince about 1984 and especially since 1987 and especially after applying for a job at Boreham in September 1989 and going thru lengthy interviews and seeing what goes into arriving at their book.. (I declined the job offer when they said, as a more senior guy,--I was mid 30s then--I would be on the road more than 250 days a year "primarily testing" and that testing was primarily suspension and alignment. I wanted at that stability in my life because it had been mostly chaotic and on the move since about 1970 as I progressed along in the motorsport world...4 times across the Atlantic for ever longer stays. )

Now your saying--exactly as I have tried to stress so fruitlessly here--so fruitlessly that you write a big passage telling suggesting that i should do exactluy what I have been doing in this little rinky-dink sport and in this country, in the sport I did before: Look what the best in the world are doing in many aspects, do seriously and faithfully what they are doing--even if initially you don't understand it,--- and you can progress faster and get better than if you --waste time worrying/fapping about things that might yield a fraction of a 1% difference.

That's why I moved to Sweden--a group of 5-6 current and past World Champions suggested I do that. Not England--wages too shitty, sponsorship somehow a must even for lowest level guys if they were young...Not Belgium, wages for everybody but especially under 25 was shit AND there were two strictly autonomous cultures --The Flemish (my ancestry) and the Wallons and they kept to their own worlds--especially younger..So all of them 1 Belge, 1 Englishman (Dave Bickers from Coddenham, outside Ipswich.We became good friends..My first car he arrangged the buy when i was 17, my last car he bought when I came back at 30. He died last August) and 3 Swedes plus Husqvarna's competition manager all discussed this--funnily Enough Dave remarked "Ya' know i never had a clue what wages and costs of living were like for locals till now.." And neither had the others so they had a good talk and in the end Dave turned, and said "Well kid, looks like you're moving to Sweden"
I answered "OK"
I asked how long time should I budget to get to NOT WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP level, but professional enough to make a decent living, a step below, International MX which paid like they were doing in the US Fall series called "Inter-AM'
They said collectively "Give yourself 10 years" (and one whispered "barring injuries"winking smiley
How long to get the physical conditioning to it it?
"at least 4 years" and they all said "Barring injuries"
I said OK..
So that's what I did, and that's how I learned to find the best information you can--that's why I learned to read English, Swedish, German, French, Dutch,---and didn't bother much with Spanish and Italian--

and then to weigh carefully what CAN BE DONE--as well as WHAT NEEDS to be done for the job at hand...

That's why I started disassembling Bilstein Shocks in the winter 1975-76 and bugging the fuck out of Kent Öhlin---who was kind and helpful in his own way. Know that name? His shop being just a mile or so away and his No1 Tech lived directly across the street form me...And all of us were learning at the time, many hours down at his shop and in mine..Learning. re-thinking.

So while you seem to imagine that I'm putting forth weird ideas of my own, I'm not.
I am suggesting that the set ups in Ford's books from 1977 Escort book, thru the 3 door book, thru the Sapphire 4x4 books (GpA and GpN) thru the various versions of the Escort Cosworth books for A, N and later Whirled Rally Car version and even the book for the FWD F2 Escort are ALL TREASURES of information and invaluable STARTING POINTS..

Tons of information is in those 7-8 books...but you gotta be just a little cautious...Little variations on some things...like in the 3 door book all the ride height stuff is all with a 16" wheel/tire package..That applied to the Sapphy 4x4 stuff as well...Only when FIA decreed a max tire diameter of 65cm ---which we still have---does the info become easier..
Also you have to bear in mind that 1987--the year of the book, was first full year in WRC with the car...how'd things change as time went on?

And a little small problem---do you know what these parts they were using were?
One real easy way to do it was to buy it. And then measure stuff.
(You think I just make up shit? Guess at valving and spring rates and I've just been blessed with dumb luck? Think again)
I did so that there's no reason to buy stuff at 2 or 3 times what it should cost..

And finally, yeah the various book settings are good starting places..I bought both front and rear all new 909 suspension, including the straight out of the catalog weird ass progressive front spring PN 909xxxxxxx...And I like them..but there's a relationship between weight, power, gearing and taste to a selection of springs..Do you know how to balance those factors?
50 mph hitting a bump is one thing in a car that is accelerating HARD (bad ass motor and good gearing), another thing in a car coasting along, and another thing braking hard..)
Are you sure you drive as aggressively, and you car has the same roughly 392 hp and the same 4.88 gearing--or 4.67--as the guys driving those cars in the set up sheets?
I know I don't.

So we gotta do some "mental tuning" maybe.

That takes experience and patience.

What do you suppose Ford was doing testing 250 days a year way back in 1989?

And you don't learn about cost/benefit analysis when you only spending other people's money--or have only driven 3 rallies ever in your life and two were in a wreck of a car...

The Oh Pea was correct when he asked about STRENGTH..
He doesn't need the 0,2% improvements that the LAST SPEC ever gives.
He needs affordable mods and easily replaceble parts that he can have spares of and that he can bang on possibly in a service...or he's out...
Everything dies.

here's a metaphor maybe better in Merikuh: We all need AK47s, not M16s.

Oh this is perfect:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ENn8UG4SDl4?rel=0"; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>







John Vanlandingham
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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2016 04:54PM by john vanlandingham.
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Pete
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Re: Merkur rear beam and sta solutions
November 07, 2016 11:56AM
Makes ya wonder, though, as they altered spring rates through the years of development with the chassis, if they were also making changes to the geometry within the limits of the rules and the spring/damper rates were complementary to those spring changes.

Like, geometry gets better, everything gets softer?

I don't remember the numbers, I do just remember that they were using different rates almost every year after 1986.



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