Construction Zone
Don\
Welcome! Log In Register

Advanced

Roll Cage question

Posted by SideburnsSteve 
SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
Ultra Moderator
Location: Alliston ONT CANADA
Join Date: 01/18/2016
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 44

Rally Car:
yes please


Roll Cage question
November 24, 2016 07:41PM
Good Day, Im hoping you guys can help me with my questions. I am a peasant that lives in the sticks in Canadia and I am wanting to work my way towards stage rally. I want to move past rallycross basically. The main thing that's held me back is money and (lack of) knowledge. I am looking at 2 different Golfs (I work at a VW dealership) to possibly build into a proper rally car some day. Both have a cage but I am trying to figure out if they can be usable with updating, or if I should forget about them. Bin trying to educate myself via the interweb but its bin pretty dang painful.

one is an early mk2 GTI that was rallied in the early 2000's and then used for road course as rally was to expensive. So the cage was good back then, and he said they added Nascar door bars and front bars as well as triangle bars at the rear shock posts.

The other is an 01 GTI 1.8t the has a FIA approved "half cage". Yeah, Im guessing that means nothing infront of the seats...? The current owner is not the one that built it, and he doesnt seem to know much. He is in contact with the guy that built it however. It was built for time attack I believe.

So, are either of these two cars worth looking further into?

Thanks a heap!
Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2016 07:49PM by SideburnsSteve.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
MattP
Matt Pullen
Mega Moderator
Location: Calgary
Join Date: 10/22/2013
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 257

Rally Car:
2002 Ford StRanger


Re: Roll Cage question
November 24, 2016 08:02PM
If the Mk2 has a CARS Logbook then you should be good to go, You may be able to get a replacement book from the CARS office as long as the cage is still compliant.



Yes, it's a Ranger.
Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Eric Ewert
Eric Ewert
Mega Moderator
Location: Calgary, Ab
Join Date: 05/13/2013
Age: Party Animal
Posts: 355

Rally Car:
volvo 240


Re: Roll Cage question
November 25, 2016 12:47AM
Get some photos up of the mk2's cage. A number of people here can give you a pretty good idea on if it is usable or not. As Matt said if its got the log book with it you're likely in the clear. However you did mention the door bars may have been played with. That to me is not the end of the world, but they may need to be changed depending on the setup. Altering door bars is way easier than needing to add tubing to the roof.

All I can say about the 01 gti is a half cage is a definite NO GO. (Half cage to me is bars behind the seats, no A-pillar bars) Past that I have little to offer you. Could you add to it? ...Maybe but I could see issues arising and resulting in cutting it out and starting from scratch. The big thing would be can you access the upper part of the main hoop well enough to weld the front half of the cage to it? The typical two methods of doing this are dropping the cage through holes in the floor OR removing the roof skin. Not to mention that if you use the existing half cage the tubing needs to meet specs.

However what you really want to do instead of listening to me is contact the local scrutineer; because at the end of the day its not me giving the word on if its good or not, its that said individual.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2016 12:49AM by Eric Ewert.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Super Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: Roll Cage question
November 25, 2016 06:40AM
Dude...

Alliston ain't the sticks... it's big city livin'! (I grew up north of Arthur)

Lots of good peeps resources around you... A few occasionally frequent here.

You a KWRC member yet?

Matt
Please Login or Register to post a reply
SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
Ultra Moderator
Location: Alliston ONT CANADA
Join Date: 01/18/2016
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 44

Rally Car:
yes please


Re: Roll Cage question
November 25, 2016 07:29PM
Thanks guy for your responses. Thats good to here about the mk2. He said he might still have the last Log Book. Although, I was talking to some other vw guys today and they cautioned me about getting such an old car. Not that they are not good for rally anymore, but because parts are getting harder to find. Especially here in Onterrible Canadia were the salt on our roads flows thick as our maple syrup, even donor cars are rare birds sad smiley I run a 92 jetta as my daily beater, and i have been starting to have trouble getting parts.

Yeah Matt, you are right...Alliston is not the sticks haha. I forgot this is a rally forum. The other forums I'm on if you are not in "the city", you are in the middle of no where. Currently I am not a member of any clubs. I was a member of MLRC back in the day. I probably should join one again tho.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
NGTD
Dave Cotie
Professional Moderator
Location: North Bay, ON Canada
Join Date: 03/27/2007
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 123


Re: Roll Cage question
November 27, 2016 04:38PM
One of the most critical issues will be the diameter of the main cage elements. The need to be 1.75" or in almost all cases you will be cutting the cage out.

Download a copy of the CARS rulebook.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Ultra Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,994

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Roll Cage question
November 27, 2016 07:36PM
Quote
NGTD
One of the most critical issues will be the diameter of the main cage elements. The need to be 1.75" or in almost all cases you will be cutting the cage out.

Download a copy of the CARS rulebook.

CARS rules that a cage can be a FIA Art 253 cage and I read both French and English quite well.
Reading both and the accompanying drawings it is only the MAIN HOOP which must be 1.75" (this began I believe in 1990 because the FIA spec cages I imported in the 1991 season were already then 1.75 MAIN HOOP.

The confusion and subsequent blind authoritarian tendencies of those who like to volunteer to be functionaries is IF the cage design is for some stupid reason a cage with 2 side hoops (start "side main hoop at base of B pillar, go up to roof, turn and go above door then down the A pillar in ONE piece--both sides, THEN all the forward stuff must be 1.75"..

Otherwise main hoop 1.75"...other forward parts either 40mm x whad-evar or 38mm aka 1.5" x whad evar

Now I don't know how the strange ideas come about but when CARS has volunteer Tech guys who never built a cage or an engine of a diff--basically a fan-boi of unknown background--simply volunteers to be Tech guy, and down here traditionally the same, its not surprising the reading is confused AND that the answer has to be defended with near religious fanatical devotion.

This understanding can be confirmed by using a simple digital caliper to measure all kinds of FIA Homologated cages or Art 253 cages..
A step evidently too technically difficult for any Official either in Tech areas or in drafting rules to manage...
Or simply asking any of the numerous cage suppliers in Europe.
Another step evidently too technically difficult for any Official either in Tech areas or in drafting rules to manage..

Amazing that I survived when I did..



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2016 11:52PM by john vanlandingham.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
MattP
Matt Pullen
Mega Moderator
Location: Calgary
Join Date: 10/22/2013
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 257

Rally Car:
2002 Ford StRanger


Re: Roll Cage question
November 27, 2016 08:29PM
Don't do anything until you have a the log book..... If the car has a log book then you WILL NOT have to touch the cage at all, it should be good to go as is. Contact Warren Haywood – Technical Director at CARS Cars Contact formif you need further clarification as to whether your cage is good or not.
As for a MK2 being too old to rally have a look at the likes of Simon Dube, Matt Bobyn, Paul Hartl and Eric Grochowski have done with these "old cars"



Yes, it's a Ranger.
Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Not Trolling
Keith Morison
Super Moderator
Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: 09/15/2015
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 267



Re: Roll Cage question
November 27, 2016 11:35PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
CARS rules that a cage can be a FIA Art 254 cage andf I read both French and English quite well.
That'd be FIA Art 253

And don't forget that the requirement for more 1.75" tubing is only when substituting DOM for CDS tubing.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Amazing that I survived when I did..
Are you sure you did?
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Ultra Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,994

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Roll Cage question
November 27, 2016 11:57PM
Quote
Not Trolling
Quote
john vanlandingham
CARS rules that a cage can be a FIA Art 253 cage andf I read both French and English quite well.
That'd be FIA Art 253

And don't forget that the requirement for more 1.75" tubing is only when substituting DOM for CDS tubing.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Amazing that I survived when I did..
Are you sure you did?

OH NOES, A TYPO!

Well if i did survive then, its all over now that I made a typo. A typo is nearly as vile detestable offense as a dirty fork






John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Not Trolling
Keith Morison
Super Moderator
Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: 09/15/2015
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 267



Re: Roll Cage question
November 28, 2016 12:12AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
OH NOES, A TYPO!

You have to admit it was pretty funny given the context.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Towona
Tony P
Elite Moderator
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: 08/21/2010
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 147

Rally Car:
MK2 Golf



Re: Roll Cage question
November 28, 2016 12:32PM
Quote
MattP
As for a MK2 being too old to rally have a look at the likes of Simon Dube, Matt Bobyn, Paul Hartl and Eric Grochowski have done with these "old cars"

Simon's the only one with a Mk2.

Matt did have a MK2 but now has MK3.


The Mk2 is a good platform, but if the shell is rusty at all you may want to reconsider. I've seen an rusty east coast mk2 rally car up close and it isn't pretty.



Runamuck Rally
Please Login or Register to post a reply
DexterVW
David Baker
Infallible Moderator
Location: Rhode my Island
Join Date: 11/20/2008
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 290

Rally Car:
95 GTI TDI


Re: Roll Cage question
November 28, 2016 04:26PM
If you are worried about parts availability with the mk2 there are two choices, 1 don't run it, 2 convert every mechanical piece to a mk3 piece and continue on.

On a budget worrying about parts availability is silly when there are other options out there. I had a fully caged log booked mk1, but at the time i was po and the rabbits were fetching 150 for clean front fenders in my area. I went to a mk3, was GIVEN 3 parts cars with in 6 months and couldn't have been happier. Now when something breaks it relatively cheap or free. Mk3's are still a dime a dozen around here and I don't think they'll come to vintage mk1 parts prices faster than my budget will expand or the future crash with a tree will come.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
Mega Moderator
Location: Fork Lake, Alberta
Join Date: 06/09/2015
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 312

Rally Car:
1992 Golf


Re: Roll Cage question
November 28, 2016 11:07PM
Quote
Towona
The Mk2 is a good platform, but if the shell is rusty at all you may want to reconsider. I've seen an rusty east coast mk2 rally car up close and it isn't pretty.
LOL Poor Pete.....



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
Ultra Moderator
Location: Alliston ONT CANADA
Join Date: 01/18/2016
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 44

Rally Car:
yes please


Re: Roll Cage question
December 01, 2016 04:57PM
Thanks again guys for the respones. All very good info!! I knew you meant 253 John hahaah

Quote
MattP
As for a MK2 being too old to rally...

Hang on, never said that. They are still competitive hereI know. Its parts availability thing...nothing more. Winters here in the land of salt and slush destroy our cars.

Quote
DexterVW
If you are worried about parts availability with the mk2 there are two choices, 1 don't run it, 2 convert every mechanical piece to a mk3 piece and continue on.

On a budget worrying about parts availability is silly when there are other options out there. I had a fully caged log booked mk1, but at the time i was po and the rabbits were fetching 150 for clean front fenders in my area. I went to a mk3, was GIVEN 3 parts cars with in 6 months and couldn't have been happier. Now when something breaks it relatively cheap or free. Mk3's are still a dime a dozen around here and I don't think they'll come to vintage mk1 parts prices faster than my budget will expand or the future crash with a tree will come.

I agree with you but trouble is that mk3's are almost as rare as mk2's up here due to the fact that they fell to pieces in our winters. But it is still doable with enough scrounging. I have a mk2 jetta beater that is almost completely mk3 drivetrain. Other then the steering rack...splines didnt match and I didnt feel like swapping coloums. But, I am not so much thinking of the drivetrain as much as the body panels. Fenders are still not to bad, but say I need a clean door for a 2dr....screwed. Or a clean hatch....screwed. I want to go for it but I got red flags popping up...

Is anyone using mk4's? or are they just not good enough? I saw the guy building the rally cross mk4 golf. bah! need beer
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login