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Roll Cage question

Posted by SideburnsSteve 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Mega Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,994

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Roll Cage question
December 01, 2016 06:37PM
Quote
SideburnsSteve
Thanks again guys for the respones. All very good info!! I knew you meant 253 John hahaah
.

Oh, thank Gawd..What a relief! I can put away the tatami mat and the tanto away.

Quote
SideburnsSteve
Is anyone using mk4's? or are they just not good enough? I saw the guy building the rally cross mk4 golf. bah! need beer


Sure, lotsa people have..In late 90s VW motorsport subbed out work to SBD in Daventry in the very lower edge of the Midlands and they ran them in British rally Champignonskit...
Despite the ROAD CAR versions being significantly porkier than MkII and MkIII, the rally car versions were fine..

I have great sympathy about the lack of mkII and III cars, they're rarer than hell here..One thing is the simply didn't sell loadsa the buggers...

Two things that I would without fail do ifn I wuz gonna fawk with one:
a) I'd make sure i could use the Corrado or whatever big bearing , separate caliper style front knuckle rather than the MK4 socket and pinch style....



rather than


2 reasons: 1)the distance from face where the wheel hits the disc to strut centerline is fixed and stock it is so close that VW puts a little flat dent in the side of the lower tube right where the rimof the wheel is.. That's nuts close...With the "normal" knuckle we have no wheel to strut contact worries.
2) in order to install the strut, the top of the knuckle must be below the very bottom of the strut and at least on some other cars that have the same Poke-in-and-pinch mounting style that I have actual in-depth experience (ripping hair out in huge piles)
Ford:



getting the whole knuckle down low enough is a bear and you begin to think about reducing overall strut length and shortening travel..

With Corrado knuckles and convention "ear" type mounting we can get the 200mm tront travel and installing is normal.

Second: MkI, II, and III Vw was kind enough to supply nice rear towers
The OEM rear shock is a coiloover..Makes using coilovers a snap..Make using my favorite 50mm Bilstein with 236mm shaft travel a snap--and as there are MANY progressive foward thinking guys out there in Focus, Xratty, 240 Volvos, AE86s and above all millions of Golf guys already using that shock, there is an increased chance you can scrounge on in a pinch

Mk4 the filthy bastids eliminated the tower, used a skinny ass little 33mm OD shock and set it VERT CLOSEeye popping smiley to the inner wheelhousing wall...and the spring was a short little POS crammed between the subframe and the lower arm where swapping of setting height---a snap in a MkI, II, or III--is a plague of biblical proportions.. More time, more money to find the right spring..

However.
Simple solution:


You (or somebody) has a derelict MkII or 3...simple drill out the spot welds and then "cut-n-shut".. You cut a hole, and you shut the hole.
See "Project Binky" for motivation
(yeah it'll cost a few cups of tea but do it once--a semi-skilled job---and life is good forever after)

There. those are the only 2 consederations...



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
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Location: Alliston ONT CANADA
Join Date: 01/18/2016
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 44

Rally Car:
yes please


Re: Roll Cage question
December 02, 2016 09:13PM
Thanks for that info John. I do agree with you about the front suspension on mk4's. Ive swapped out a few. I had luck disconnecting the sway bar. Lets the control arm drop a bit more, especially if the bushings are worn out hahaha. Never thought about using the older style knuckle. Maybe the mk3 vr knuckle might work. I think it has similar ball joint angle, and uses same caliper. ANyone tried this yet??

As for the rear, YEAH! That was one of the biggest things that annoyed me about the mk4 platform. I had thought about trying to put in a mk2/3 top piece...or maybe I read it somewhere. Either way, hell yeah thats a good idea! I wonder tho how hard it would be to get it in the right spot...?
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Mega Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,994

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Roll Cage question
December 03, 2016 12:39AM
Quote
SideburnsSteve
Thanks for that info John. I do agree with you about the front suspension on mk4's. Ive swapped out a few. I had luck disconnecting the sway bar. Lets the control arm drop a bit more, especially if the bushings are worn out hahaha. Never thought about using the older style knuckle. Maybe the mk3 vr knuckle might work. I think it has similar ball joint angle, and uses same caliper. ANyone tried this yet??

As for the rear, YEAH! That was one of the biggest things that annoyed me about the mk4 platform. I had thought about trying to put in a mk2/3 top piece...or maybe I read it somewhere. Either way, hell yeah thats a good idea! I wonder tho how hard it would be to get it in the right spot...?

Car body shells are not precision articles..Ever notice they slot most fenders like 1/2"?

Pretty easy (with a CLEAN glossy white painted inner wheel housing) to lay some lo-tack tape down, run a sharpie line down them and then Sawz-all down those 2 lines.

Falling down drunk Irish, and catatonically hammered Good Ol' Boys have managed for decades to weld in towers and links on RWD Escorts or NazzKars..

They can do it, we can do it.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
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Location: Alliston ONT CANADA
Join Date: 01/18/2016
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 44

Rally Car:
yes please


Re: Roll Cage question
December 05, 2016 04:48PM
hahahaha!! ok that's encouraging! So basically buy some tape, a case of beer, and bring a buddy and I'll be golden smiling smiley
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Location: Denver, CO
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Merkur



Re: Roll Cage question
December 05, 2016 05:27PM
Car body shells are generally not precision items. There are a few things that are of greater importance than others. Subframe mounting points and mounts can be pretty important. Non-locating suspension pickups are not that important though.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
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Location: Alliston ONT CANADA
Join Date: 01/18/2016
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Posts: 44

Rally Car:
yes please


Re: Roll Cage question
December 08, 2016 05:43PM
So the owner of the MK2 golf found the log book...

Log book by Stephen Hollema, on Flickr

He say it has no rust atm. The floors had some but it was fixed with fiberglass. Dunno how big of a hole(s) there was, I'd prefer sheet metal.
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Not Trolling
Keith Morison
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Location: Calgary, AB
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Re: Roll Cage question
December 08, 2016 06:03PM
If that is a 1994 cage, it will be grandfathered... but you probably don't want to rally in it. (or maybe you do)
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SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
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Location: Alliston ONT CANADA
Join Date: 01/18/2016
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 44

Rally Car:
yes please


Re: Roll Cage question
December 11, 2016 10:53AM
Quote
Not Trolling
If that is a 1994 cage, it will be grandfathered... but you probably don't want to rally in it. (or maybe you do)

I was thinking the same. Just cause it passes, doesn't mean I want to bounce off a tree in it...
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Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
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Location: Portland , Or
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MK2 VW GTI



Re: Roll Cage question
December 11, 2016 02:59PM
Quote
SideburnsSteve
Quote
Not Trolling
If that is a 1994 cage, it will be grandfathered... but you probably don't want to rally in it. (or maybe you do)

I was thinking the same. Just cause it passes, doesn't mean I want to bounce off a tree in it...

There are older cars with nice cages. There are also older cars and newer cars with cages that are sketch-balls to the max.

Without pictures of the cage, it's hard for anyone to say if it's a good candidate or one to shy away from.
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Roll Cage question
December 11, 2016 05:53PM
NASA rules are different for grandfathered cages than Rally America also. In NASA, grandfathering will get you through one year then you may need updates.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Roll Cage question
December 11, 2016 05:54PM
I made the comment the other day, if your car last long enough to need grandfathered then you aren't driving it hard enough.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
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MK2 VW GTI



Re: Roll Cage question
December 11, 2016 06:06PM
Quote
NoCoast
I made the comment the other day, if your car last long enough to need grandfathered then you aren't driving it hard enough at all.

Fixed it to reflect my current state.
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NGTD
Dave Cotie
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Re: Roll Cage question
December 11, 2016 10:10PM
Quote
NoCoast
NASA rules are different for grandfathered cages than Rally America also. In NASA, grandfathering will get you through one year then you may need updates.

He's in Canada - so probably more concerned with CARS rules.
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Roll Cage question
December 12, 2016 02:23PM
Quote
NGTD
Quote
NoCoast
NASA rules are different for grandfathered cages than Rally America also. In NASA, grandfathering will get you through one year then you may need updates.

He's in Canada - so probably more concerned with CARS rules.

Ah I see that now. I should read more closely, I guess that's why we have locations on here.
I am not sure what Canada grandpappy rules are. I don't speak French sadly.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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SideburnsSteve
Stephen Hollema
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Join Date: 01/18/2016
Age: Settling Down
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Rally Car:
yes please


Re: Roll Cage question
December 12, 2016 06:28PM
Thanks again for the comments guys. Good info and some good humour cool smiley

I might go see the car, but Im really thinking of just passing on it. I should get more serious into rallycross and club events first anyways. If I go see it I'll take pics of the cage.

Yes Im up in Canada, but I dont speak french either. Actually I doubt that even 20% of Canadians can actually speak french. Its really stupid that we are forced to put everything in both english and french. We actually loose out because some companies find that its not worth it to make a new label for a product with french also, so they dont sell to us. Lame. At the same time, the french speakers are generally the biggest rally fans. So I love em!
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