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GPS rally computers

Posted by NoCoast 
Vincent Gagnon
The same thing that I just wrote
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Re: GPS rally computers
December 02, 2016 02:23AM
Quote
Not Trolling


Regardless, I always find percentages are more meaningful when interpreting data.

Ok then,
when I asked myself who would be ready to get paid ONE MILLION DOLLAR to put one of those useless shit in my car, I've said yes.

So 100% of the drivers agree.




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If they don't give you work, ask for bread.
If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.

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dreamsofjvl
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Re: GPS rally computers
December 02, 2016 08:36AM
Quote
Vincent Gagnon

Ok then,
when I asked myself who would be ready to get paid ONE MILLION DOLLAR to put one of those useless shit in my car, I've said yes.

So 100% of the drivers agree.

smileys with beer
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: GPS rally computers
December 02, 2016 11:35AM
Quote
Not Trolling
snip (

blah blah a load of typical Morison defensive bullshit because a pet idea was questioned)
I suppose you're right. A screen that lights up in bright colours in your periphial vision is so much less of a distration that a triangle on the side of the road that may have been knocked over by flying gravel (seen lots) or been obliterated by the previous car because it was 'in the line.' It is also so incredibly more difficult to see that screen than it is the triangle that is still in the car that is on its roof, hidden in the ditch. (been there just a couple years ago, seen it lots)

And then its really hard to see triangles if the alien's landing pods darken the sky and the blinding flash of all of Calagary vaporising in an instant and the wild animals stampeding ...


First Morison you've repeated about 4 thousand times about "we had 13 cars drive right past a...."
and "a car disappeared and nobody knew"

Triangles AND OK signboard waved sillily by surviving crew..

Don't your rules
a) require triangles to be deployed?
b) require crew---if alive---to display OK sign?
c) require next cars to STOP and ASCERTAIN what the fuck is up IF they see no OK sign?

I don't know..That's the rules everywhere I know, just is.

So is that your rules?
If not why not?

Why weren't "the imfamous 13" disciplined in a way which would be meaningful? 9the crux of the issue)



John Vanlandingham
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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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dreamsofjvl
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Re: GPS rally computers
December 02, 2016 04:00PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Why weren't "the imfamous 13" disciplined in a way which would be meaningful? 9the crux of the issue)

CARS seems to have a habit of being lax on enforcement, unless they have an agenda to fulfill or a person they wish to go after.

I know I got an earful, plus a PROBATION notice for my car rolling across the parking lot and bumping into a trailer, whereas there are people that continuously speed on recce jeopardizing the event as a whole (and also not being safe) who keep racking up fines and not changing their behavior.

Some shit went down at Tall Pines that is all very "hush hush", haven't seen a probation or disciplinary notice yet on CARS, which just goes to show how the whole game is played.

When I was president, the argument was "we can't fine everyone" after a large amount of people didn't stop for triangles. eye rolling smiley
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Keith Morison
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Re: GPS rally computers
December 02, 2016 04:09PM
OK John, I'm going to assume you're actually trying to engage in a conversation rather then being obtuse or rhetorical.

Yes, CARS rules are very clear about triangle and OK sign use and have been since I started in the sport, even if that was only 15 years ago. The vast majority of drivers meeting I've evert attended, or held, has driven those rules home:
- if you stop on stage, put out a triangle far back enough to be usefull
- if you're OK, Show the OK sign to EVERY following car (I seem to recall SCCA or RA had a 'next three cars' part of that rule)
- If you need medical help, show the red cross
- If you see a triangle, be prepared to stop - it could mean a completely blocked road.
- If you see a triangle, racing stops untill you see an OK sign
- If you don't see an OK sign, you stop.
- etc.

The exact rules can be found here:
https://carsrally.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2016_CARS_Rule_Book_Eng_web-3.pdf

But hey, I'll make it easy for you:
Quote
CARS Rule Book
17.9 Use of Safety Warning Devices
17.9.1 In cases where a vehicle is stopped:
17.9.1.1 ONE warning triangle must be placed at the same side of the road as the stopped vehicle, facing oncoming rally traffic, a sufficient distance from the stopped vehicle to give ample warning to oncoming competitors.
17.9.1.2 If the vehicle is unable to continue the rally, ONE triangle must also be placed ON the vehicle.
17.9.1.3 Competitors arriving at a location where a triangle is displayed shall SLOW to a reasonable speed and maintain that speed until they have passed the stopped vehicle (no scoring relief will be given).
Competitors are reminded that one triangle could indicate a complete route blockage.
17.9.2 In the event of injuries, competitors are expected to display the red cross symbol (back cover of the route book) and following competitors are required to stop and render aid.
17.9.3 If no triangle is displayed, competitors arriving at a location where another competing vehicle has stopped, must stop until the safety of the occupants of the stopped vehicle has been ascertained and the set-up of the stopped vehicle’s triangle has started. Vehicles stopping to comply with this rule may apply for scoring relief under 15.13.
17.9.4 If a crew is stopped in a stage, unable to continue, but do not need medical attention, they must display the "OK" sign found on the reverse of the red cross, to following rally cars.
17.9.5 The organiser, upon inquiry and only with the concurrence of the Steward(s) of the meeting, shall have the right to grant a time allowance to a competitor who has stopped to ascertain the need for assistance as per section 2 above.
17.9.6 Display of a Red Cross symbol on a stage will be cause for possible cancellation of the stage by the organiser with the concurrence of the stewards.
17.9.7 Self-igniting flares may not be used at any time on stages.
17.9.8 Competitors having displayed any triangles must recover them before continuing any further in the rally.
17.9.9 Penalties for violation of the above shall be according to 17.3.

Regardless, even with these well entrenched rules, 9 cars drove past an evo on its side in the middle of the road at Tall Pines several years ago. None of the crews were penalized. To be fair, 17.9.3 was one of the rules added after the incident, but it was definitely part of 'the talk' before.

As I understood it (I was on the board of directors at the time) most teams claimed to have been waived on by the crew in the car, so continued. A couple, claimed to have not seen the car. (which interestingly became the case later after the car was righted and driven into a side road.) 17.9.9 was also added because previously there was no prescribed penalty, and stewards were reluctant to issue fines or time penalties.

So, in quick order - the followig rule was drafted and adopted:
Quote
CARS Rule Book
17.3 Improper Procedure Infractions
Improper Procedure Infractions must be reported in writing to the organiser by marshals, judges of fact or competitors. Upon confirmation of the infraction or when a judgement by a judge of fact a penalty of 10 minutes will be applied for a first infraction and may result in a recommendation by the organizer to the steward(s) for a sentence of exclusion for a second violation during the event. Use of in-car video footage may be used by event or CARS officials to verify compliance with the regulations for use of safety warning devices (see 3.11) For 17.3.4 below, in addition to the 10 minute penalty applied to the crew, a $500 fine will be assessed to the entrant by the steward(s) of the event.
Note that the referenced 17.3.4 is "17.3.4 Violation of procedures detailed in 17.9.

That rule, the 10 minute penalty, and the $500 fine were applied in the first event it was in force, and has been applied a few times since. The first team to get that fine, as I recall, were in their first event and went away and never came back. (Glad to be corrected, but that's what I recall.) They were caught because they did it right in front of event officials and camera crews.

But here is the biggest problem... for 90% of the infractions, it will take a team coming forward with in-car footage to be able to have any chance of enforcing the rule. That doesn't, and won't, happen. Which team wants to be the one to cost another team 10 minutes and $500?

How do you suggest that rule be policed? How do you suggest that the mindset be changed? We are clear in our drivers meetings that 10minutes and $500 means we're serious about the process, regardless of if we can catch you or not... people still fail to follow the rule on a regular basis.

Of course the other concern that the rule doesn't address is the situation where the triangles can't be placed before the next car comes along. Be it the car is too far off the road (been there), or too mangled to be able to get out quickly (been there.) These aren't 'one off' or 'never happen' scenarios. Particularly in the back of the pack it isn't uncommon to have the next car much closer than a minute behind, and they are the crews that get flustered and take longer to get things done right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2016 01:18AM by Not Trolling.
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Keith Morison
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Re: GPS rally computers
December 02, 2016 04:33PM
Quote
dreamsofjvl
I know I got an earful, plus a PROBATION notice for my car rolling across the parking lot and bumping into a trailer,
Which you deserved, but I still felt bad about.
Quote
dreamsofjvl
whereas there are people that continuously speed on recce jeopardizing the event as a whole (and also not being safe) who keep racking up fines and not changing their behavior.
And if you think they go through events without getting earfulls and./or being put on probation you'd be seriously wrong. There is one team that faces extremely strict conditions on their participation and faces a lifetime ban for the slightest misstep in recce.

Quote
dreamsofjvl
Some shit went down at Tall Pines that is all very "hush hush", haven't seen a probation or disciplinary notice yet on CARS, which just goes to show how the whole game is played.
If you think sanctioning body level disciplinary action would have been decided on in a week, you clearly don't understand the process. Depending on the situation, it can easily take months to get through the process if applying sanctions to a competitor. Had your incident not happened as the drivers meeting watched and literally in front of me, it would have been a lot tougher to deal with as well.
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MattP
Matt Pullen
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Re: GPS rally computers
December 03, 2016 08:31PM
There have been a number of incidents at events that have been observed and dealt with by the organizers and the crews concerned, if these crews then don’t turn around and say that they have been caught then you won’t necessarily find out.
At the first event I organised here in Canada it was an open secret that some crews had been going out on the roads within the 60 day exclusion period contrary to the issued sup regs. I was not happy that this was being considered, so I went on to the stages 14 days before the event on a hunch, nothing more nothing less.
A potential competitor was seen, with his navigator, writing notes on all three of the stages to be used. He was seen by me, nobody else, not hearsay or an accusation, by me the organiser. There were sanctions as a result of the blatant breaking of the rules put in place to create a level playing field. Was the competitor happy, no, not at all. It was inevitable that someone was going to be caught doing illegal recce, it just happened to be this individual. In all honesty it wasn’t the competitor that had been hinted would be on stage. What it did do was send a message that this sort of behaviour will not be condoned nor ignored in the future.
Speeding on recce has an enormous risk to competitors as well as other road users, but also to the continued use of the road for stage rallies. We have all heard of speeding on recce, hell I’m betting some of us have even paid the fines for being caught but it’s a rule we have to follow. There is technology (Rallysafe) that can detect this and inform the organizer before the end of recce, without the need to have huge amounts of volunteers armed with radar guns out on stage, or for the testimony (hearsay) of other crews to the infraction being committed.
We are grown adults here doing a sport that has rules. Do I agree with all the rules in the GRC’s, no, that isn’t the point, they are the rules and we have to follow them. They should they be applied across the board without fear or favor, I’m sorry, but if you don’t follow the rules as set out and are caught, then be prepared to accept the consequences.



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Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.
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Keith Morison
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Re: GPS rally computers
December 05, 2016 07:05PM
Quote
Not Trolling
OK John, I'm going to assume you're actually trying to engage in a conversation rather then being obtuse or rhetorical.
Yes, CARS rules are very clear about triangle and OK sign use and have been since I started in the sport...
But here is the biggest problem... for 90% of the infractions, it will take a team coming forward with in-car footage to be able to have any chance of enforcing the rule. That doesn't, and won't, happen.

How do you suggest that rule be policed?
How do you suggest that the mindset be changed?


We are clear in our drivers meetings that 10minutes and $500 means we're serious about the process, regardless of if we can catch you or not... people still fail to follow the rule on a regular basis.
Quote
john vanlandingham
[clickets]

Yah... figured as much.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: GPS rally computers
December 05, 2016 08:52PM
Quote
Not Trolling
Quote
Not Trolling
OK John, I'm going to assume you're actually trying to engage in a conversation rather then being obtuse or rhetorical.
Yes, CARS rules are very clear about triangle and OK sign use and have been since I started in the sport...
But here is the biggest problem... for 90% of the infractions, it will take a team coming forward with in-car footage to be able to have any chance of enforcing the rule. That doesn't, and won't, happen.

How do you suggest that rule be policed?
How do you suggest that the mindset be changed?


We are clear in our drivers meetings that 10minutes and $500 means we're serious about the process, regardless of if we can catch you or not... people still fail to follow the rule on a regular basis.
Quote
john vanlandingham
[clickets]

Yah... figured as much.

Ever consider that I might be busy? Maybe you don't ever work, maybe you don't have kids or a wife. I do..

Also never forget that I do not trust anything you say.. I do not trust the way you use words to make and obfuscate..what Adam called you out so succinctly: treating people like they are idiots and using "used car salesman" words...
So I feel no urgency to respond to you when I have never seen that anything said penetrates your preconcieved ideas.....like relying on some "techy" gizmos as a viable solution. (You gave it away way back when when you were all excited "and then people in service or at home can follow events live gee golly neato ain't that keen?" )

Look at this entire post:
Quote

Not Trolling
Keith Morison
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Not Trolling [ PM ]
Re: GPS rally computers
3 days ago Registered: 09/15/2015
Posts: 186
OK John, I'm going to assume you're actually trying to engage in a conversation rather then being obtuse or rhetorical.

Yes, CARS rules are very clear about triangle and OK sign use and have been since I started in the sport, even if that was only 15 years ago. The vast majority of drivers meeting I've evert attended, or held, has driven those rules home:
- if you stop on stage, put out a triangle far back enough to be usefull
- if you're OK, Show the OK sign to EVERY following car (I seem to recall SCCA or RA had a 'next three cars' part of that rule)
- If you need medical help, show the red cross
- If you see a triangle, be prepared to stop - it could mean a completely blocked road.
- If you see a triangle, racing stops untill you see an OK sign
- If you don't see an OK sign, you stop.
- etc.

The exact rules can be found here:
https://carsrally.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2016_CARS_Rule_Book_Eng_web-3.pdf

But hey, I'll make it easy for you:
Quote
CARS Rule Book
17.9 Use of Safety Warning Devices
17.9.1 In cases where a vehicle is stopped:
17.9.1.1 ONE warning triangle must be placed at the same side of the road as the stopped vehicle, facing oncoming rally traffic, a sufficient distance from the stopped vehicle to give ample warning to oncoming competitors.
17.9.1.2 If the vehicle is unable to continue the rally, ONE triangle must also be placed ON the vehicle.
17.9.1.3 Competitors arriving at a location where a triangle is displayed shall SLOW to a reasonable speed and maintain that speed until they have passed the stopped vehicle (no scoring relief will be given).
Competitors are reminded that one triangle could indicate a complete route blockage.
17.9.2 In the event of injuries, competitors are expected to display the red cross symbol (back cover of the route book) and following competitors are required to stop and render aid.
17.9.3 If no triangle is displayed, competitors arriving at a location where another competing vehicle has stopped, must stop until the safety of the occupants of the stopped vehicle has been ascertained and the set-up of the stopped vehicle’s triangle has started. Vehicles stopping to comply with this rule may apply for scoring relief under 15.13.
17.9.4 If a crew is stopped in a stage, unable to continue, but do not need medical attention, they must display the "OK" sign found on the reverse of the red cross, to following rally cars.
17.9.5 The organiser, upon inquiry and only with the concurrence of the Steward(s) of the meeting, shall have the right to grant a time allowance to a competitor who has stopped to ascertain the need for assistance as per section 2 above.
17.9.6 Display of a Red Cross symbol on a stage will be cause for possible cancellation of the stage by the organiser with the concurrence of the stewards.
17.9.7 Self-igniting flares may not be used at any time on stages.
17.9.8 Competitors having displayed any triangles must recover them before continuing any further in the rally.
17.9.9 Penalties for violation of the above shall be according to 17.3.

Regardless, even with these well entrenched rules, 9 cars drove past an evo on its side in the middle of the road at Tall Pines several years ago. None of the crews were penalized. To be fair, 17.9.3 was one of the rules added after the incident, but it was definitely part of 'the talk' before.

As I understood it (I was on the board of directors at the time) most teams claimed to have been waived on by the crew in the car, so continued. A couple, claimed to have not seen the car. (which interestingly became the case later after the car was righted and driven into a side road.) 17.9.9 was also added because previously there was no prescribed penalty, and stewards were reluctant to issue fines or time penalties.

So, in quick order - the followig rule was drafted and adopted:
Quote
CARS Rule Book
17.3 Improper Procedure Infractions
Improper Procedure Infractions must be reported in writing to the organiser by marshals, judges of fact or competitors. Upon confirmation of the infraction or when a judgement by a judge of fact a penalty of 10 minutes will be applied for a first infraction and may result in a recommendation by the organizer to the steward(s) for a sentence of exclusion for a second violation during the event. Use of in-car video footage may be used by event or CARS officials to verify compliance with the regulations for use of safety warning devices (see 3.11) For 17.3.4 below, in addition to the 10 minute penalty applied to the crew, a $500 fine will be assessed to the entrant by the steward(s) of the event.
Note that the referenced 17.3.4 is "17.3.4 Violation of procedures detailed in 17.9.

That rule, the 10 minute penalty, and the $500 fine were applied in the first event it was in force, and has been applied a few times since. The first team to get that fine, as I recall, were in their first event and went away and never came back. (Glad to be corrected, but that's what I recall.) They were caught because they did it right in front of event officials and camera crews.

But here is the biggest problem... for 90% of the infractions, it will take a team coming forward with in-car footage to be able to have any chance of enforcing the rule. That doesn't, and won't, happen. Which team wants to be the one to cost another team 10 minutes and $500?

How do you suggest that rule be policed? How do you suggest that the mindset be changed? We are clear in our drivers meetings that 10minutes and $500 means we're serious about the process, regardless of if we can catch you or not... people still fail to follow the rule on a regular basis.

Of course the other concern that the rule doesn't address is the situation where the triangles can't be placed before the next car comes along. Be it the car is too far off the road (been there), or too mangled to be able to get out quickly (been there.) These aren't 'one off' or 'never happen' scenarios. Particularly in the back of the pack it isn't uncommon to have the next car much closer than a minute behind, and they are the crews that get flustered and take longer to get things done right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2 days ago by Not Trolling.


Nopt one name...You know names, name them...You say "9 cars went by..name them--you know it was 9..Don't be a putz and ask me what I'd do, explain why YOUR ORGANISATION did nothing to "the 9"...and didn't publicize the affair as a prophylactic example of the problem..Why not name the competitors caught in illegal recce? And name them in drivers meetings and what their penalties were?


Instead of vague references which you always do.. (like the infamous "the tech committee spoke with several top tunerz...." which is bullshit talk instead of "The tech committee consisting of Fred Finkelbaim, Ignatz Schwartz and Enrique Gualoupe (all linked to profiles of who they are and why it is entrusted to them to be onvolved with making technical decisions) spoke with top tunerz "Missile Rally principle Bela Kun, Can-Marmenlade principle Vladimir Ovichinnikov, and Rad-Xtreme-waybad principle Louis-Jacques Robert" which would have been clear--and shown the obvious self-interest that tunerz shops had in maintaining their customer base...and their own position.)

You still tried to weasel out of the crucial question: people don't follow existing easy to understand rules , how or why are they suddenly going to pay attention and do the right things with this new expensive tech-plaything?

Its the same old shit: first things first before resorting to and relying on expensive unknown complicated expensive pet projects.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Not Trolling
Keith Morison
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Location: Calgary, AB
Join Date: 09/15/2015
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 268



Re: GPS rally computers
December 05, 2016 09:59PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Nopt one name...You know names, name them...You say "9 cars went by..name them--you know it was 9.
Actually, I don't have a clue who the 9 were. It was Pines, an event I don't often go to. They were never disciplined, because at the time there was no penalty that could be assessed.... but I already said that. a

Quote
john vanlandingham
Why not name the competitors caught in illegal recce? And name them in drivers meetings and what their penalties were?
At the time - and an incident that Matt brought up, not me - Tibor Kertes and Shabir Haji were named, and a bulletin regarding their exclusion was posted to the event notice board... as it should be.

Quote
john vanlandingham
You still tried to weasel out of the crucial question: people don't follow existing easy to understand rules , how or why are they suddenly going to pay attention and do the right things with this new expensive tech-plaything?
The reality is that the system is as much about the event tracking the cars as it is the car-to-car communications. In fact, the eastern organisers are using a tracking system that while somewhat cheaper ONLY offers tracking and a manually pushed SOS button.
Where this system shines is where a car is approaching a car that has either just retrieved their triangle, hasn't got it out yet, or can't get it out.

You are the one who is stuck on the idea of enforcement where it is next to impossible to get enough evidence to actually take action. That's why I asked how you would enforce the rule.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Its the same old shit: first things first before resorting to and relying on expensive unknown complicated expensive pet projects.
Hardly unknown. RallySafe is mandated at all events in Australia, is used at all 20 stage events in New Zealand, is used in the APRC, in India, and in Europe. It works, and works well as anyone who's run an event with it knows.
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