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Another XR4T build

Posted by deaner 
deaner
Dane Aura
Professional Moderator
Location: Caldwell, ID
Join Date: 07/07/2013
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Posts: 337

Rally Car:
PS4 controller


Another XR4T build
April 23, 2017 10:28PM
I've done some pretty stupid shit but this.... this one takes the cake!

I was pretty far into an Audi 4000 build(build thread is on here) when I realized that I got completely effed on my cage. The chassis was pretty much worthless at that point. With a big move across country on its way, I ended up parting it out and selling off my other 4000 as well to help with the move some. Fast forward a year and here I am, living in SW Idaho with a pair of Merkurs in my possession!

A package deal came up on this duo less than 5 miles from my house and like an idiot, I snagged em ha!
The green ones a "slicktop" roller with 3" exhaust, MC2 bushings all around, megasquirt, Konis and a few other little bits here and there. The motor from it ended up in the silver one. PO claims it's got 5k miles on a rebuild with a ported head and intake mani and a new clutch as well. Haven't been able to verify yet but as of now, I don't really have a reason to not believe him.

The silver one technically runs but pisses water from behind the flywheel some where. He said when he swapped the motor over, he got it running with just water and with how fast winter showed up this year, you can guess what happened. Frozen. Fingers crossed it's just a popped freeze plug or something.

I brought them home today and haven't really messed with em too much yet. Silver one is in the garage on jackstands and I got about as far as yanking the turbo off in prep to pull the motor.
Plan is to get the silver one running and then go play with it. Keeping it simple and fun with no crazy sidetracked bullshit like I have done on past builds. The green one will be my eventual stage car I think. I reckon I'll have fun at hill climbs and grassocross with the silver one while I prep the green one. Anywho, here are some pics...
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
Mod Moderator
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 6,740

Rally Car:
Merkur



Re: Another XR4T build
April 23, 2017 11:46PM
Nice find! Keep it simple!



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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deaner
Dane Aura
Professional Moderator
Location: Caldwell, ID
Join Date: 07/07/2013
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 337

Rally Car:
PS4 controller


Re: Another XR4T build
April 26, 2017 12:04AM
Got some time to tinker with this thing a bit tonight after wrangling kids and dealing with the normal evening craziness before the little ones go down. I ended up turning a bunch of bolts to the left and eventually the motor wound up on my garage floor. Laying in the bell housing was the frost plug I'd been hoping was the issue for this lump not holding water. Beyond pumped right now! I plan on pulling the clutch and inspecting the rest of the motor tomorrow night after supper and then figuring out giving the chassis and motor a good bath. Holy sticky efffing oily mess all over the underside of this car.

Oh! More cool news. I was digging around in some boxes in the back of the green chassis and found some IC plumbing and a rotated upper intake manifold. Both manifolds have been ported like mad as you can see in the pics. I'll try and post up some pics of the stockers side by side. As for the IC plumbing, it looks like it should work out quite nicely with either MerkurDepots combo or a 900/cossie rad/IC setup! Score! On top of that, it's already got an IAT bung and a TiAL BOV flange welded on. Just so happens I traded some Audi motor mounts to AJ for the TiAL off his rally car a couple of weeks ago. Gotta love how things work out sometimes.

Couple of pics. Nothing crazy .
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deaner
Dane Aura
Professional Moderator
Location: Caldwell, ID
Join Date: 07/07/2013
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 337

Rally Car:
PS4 controller


Re: Another XR4T build
April 26, 2017 12:11AM
Do these ports look worked on? Seems like a ton of flash in there but it's all soft to the touch and the mating surface has been deburred. I don't know what these look like normally. Thoughts?
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
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Saab 96 V4



Re: Another XR4T build
April 26, 2017 01:46AM
Yeah somebody's been in there playing around.. Check valve sizes, maybe somebody used bigger already..

You looked real hard at the gap tween intake and exhaust valves?

You see any signs of heat? Gonna check for deck flatness?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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MarkHille
Mark Hille
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Location: The hills of CT
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I have two crap boxes


Re: Another XR4T build
April 26, 2017 07:45AM
Deaner, of the 5 or 6 2.3 turbo blocks I have, ALL of them had corrosion on the deck that could have/did negatively affected how well the head gasket held up over time. It isn't always easy to see but it can make a difference. It isn't an easy call but decking the block could save you some time and some $$$ if the guy before you didn't do it. The cost of a new head gasket would be worth it to me to find out at this point.......vs the side of the road later. You might even leak down test it before the head comes off to see if everything is sealing as it should and to get some baseline numbers. I'd be leery of those freshly rebuilt non running engines....

I have a Mega-mess running 2.3 (technically megasquirt 3) so if you have any issues I've probably been there and might be able to help you out. Ask away and I will do my best to answer any questions or point you in the right direction. If it is set up right and you don't mess with it you may never have any issues though. I sure did.....
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deaner
Dane Aura
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Location: Caldwell, ID
Join Date: 07/07/2013
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Posts: 337

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PS4 controller


Re: Another XR4T build
April 26, 2017 04:02PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Yeah somebody's been in there playing around.. Check valve sizes, maybe somebody used bigger already..

You looked real hard at the gap tween intake and exhaust valves?

You see any signs of heat? Gonna check for deck flatness?

I'm not I understanding what you mean about the gap? Are you referring to the size difference between the two?

From the little bit of inspection after I got it out, I didn't see anything that jumped out at me. Granted, I didn't spend much time going over everything. Pretty much got the motor on the ground, burned a smoke and then called it a night. I wasn't planning on pulling the head honestly. Are Ford headbolts torque to yield? If I can reuse them, I'd be alright with picking up a gasket kit and pulling it. I just don't want to get the "while I'm in here" ball rolling. Engine sounded nice the little bit I ran it. It actually drove into my garage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2017 04:02PM by deaner.
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deaner
Dane Aura
Professional Moderator
Location: Caldwell, ID
Join Date: 07/07/2013
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 337

Rally Car:
PS4 controller


Re: Another XR4T build
April 26, 2017 04:11PM
Quote
MarkHille
Deaner, of the 5 or 6 2.3 turbo blocks I have, ALL of them had corrosion on the deck that could have/did negatively affected how well the head gasket held up over time. It isn't always easy to see but it can make a difference. It isn't an easy call but decking the block could save you some time and some $$$ if the guy before you didn't do it. The cost of a new head gasket would be worth it to me to find out at this point.......vs the side of the road later. You might even leak down test it before the head comes off to see if everything is sealing as it should and to get some baseline numbers. I'd be leery of those freshly rebuilt non running engines....

I have a Mega-mess running 2.3 (technically megasquirt 3) so if you have any issues I've probably been there and might be able to help you out. Ask away and I will do my best to answer any questions or point you in the right direction. If it is set up right and you don't mess with it you may never have any issues though. I sure did.....

Mark,

I'm not sure what I want to do yet. The PO hasn't given me any reason to believe the work isn't legit. He claims all the machine work was done and assembled properly. Seeing all of the other money spent on porting and other goodies I've found, I don't really have reason to doubt him. Kind of a tough one. The thorough part of me wants to tear it down and inspect, but knowing I can be the "while I'm in here" type of guy, I want to leave it alone haha.

What kind of problems did you run into? I've got a little bit of experience between Audi/VW and a Miata or two. The ECU that I have looks to be an older PnP unit. I haven't plugged it into my stim yet to check it all out. I'm not super hyped on this old wiring harness, that's for sure. I like megasquirt even though it can be finicky at times, but with the insane amount of data out there to rifle through, it's not impossible to dial in. Are you still batch fire/dizzy or are you able to utilize some of the cool stuff MS3 has to offer?
Thanks for the info and the offer, I'll more than likely need a bit of help later on haha.
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MarkHille
Mark Hille
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I have two crap boxes


Re: Another XR4T build
April 27, 2017 05:59AM
I am running sequential with a Hyundai/Mitsubishi cas in the distributer. I started off with a crank sensor and a one tooth vain in a stock dizzy. I wouldn't recommend the crank sensor for rally unless you had it covered. If the sensor moved at all it would start loosing sync. With all the mud and debris....it is only a matter of time. I didn't have the stock crank trigger setup and maybe that would be way better....I can't remember. I have found out that the manual isn't always 100% right and some of it was through trial and error. Setting up the cas was a pain in my ass but I eventually figured it out and can now say it has been worth it.
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Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
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Location: Portland , Or
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MK2 VW GTI



Re: Another XR4T build
April 27, 2017 11:10AM
If you have any CAS questions, turbobricks.com will have a decent amount of info. It's a standard swap for the redblocks peeps if they want sequential. It also helps that someone makes a billet distributor that drops into a volvo redblock and uses the CAS pickup with a custom trigger disk for better resolution.
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MarkHille
Mark Hille
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I have two crap boxes


Re: Another XR4T build
April 27, 2017 01:39PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
If you have any CAS questions, turbobricks.com will have a decent amount of info. It's a standard swap for the redblocks peeps if they want sequential. It also helps that someone makes a billet distributor that drops into a volvo redblock and uses the CAS pickup with a custom trigger disk for better resolution.

Not always. haha. You may get lucky and not have rpm sync problems but you may also get sync loss and need to adjust the voltage megasquirt is getting in order to rev to a useful rpm. More than the pots will allow. The manual is/was off for this configuration at least concerning megasquirt 3. The guys on turbobricks were helpful but none of them solved my voltage issue. Maybe I'm the only one that had a megasquirt that ever had issues regarding this. I doubt it. If you use a low resolution wheel (like the Miata ladies) the voltage isn't as much as an issue but if you want the 24 tooth wheel...that is where I had problems. Also, the cheap $35 cas is just as good as the oem Mitsubishi one. Ask me how I know. Volvo dizzy doesn't fit the ford in case anyone was wondering. Also, about the only thing I would suggest someone buy from Josh is the trigger disk itself and there are other places that sell them so.....
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Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
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Re: Another XR4T build
April 27, 2017 01:56PM
True, it's a mixed bag over there.

The voltage issue with triggers in MS and uS is a PITA. I wish they would get that figured out.
I ended up using a 5k ohm resistor across the VR+ and VR- to get the signal voltage below the max cut-off. 60-2 wheel at 8k rpm and no sync issues. Without the resistor it was cutting out at ~4k rpm as the voltage would spike over 100v.

I had an issue with one uS that caused it to fire 180deg out and correctly... at the same time. Updated the firmware and reloaded the tune and it ran perfect. WTF MS?!?!?!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2017 12:38AM by Robert Culbertson.
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MarkHille
Mark Hille
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Location: The hills of CT
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I have two crap boxes


Re: Another XR4T build
April 28, 2017 06:47AM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
True, it's a mixed bag over there.

The voltage issue with triggers in MS and uS is a PITA. I wish they would get that figured out.
I ended up using a 5k ohm resistor across the VR+ and VR- to get the signal voltage below the max cut-off. 60-2 wheel at 8k rpm and no sync issues. Without the resistor it was cutting out at ~4k rpm as the voltage would spike over 100v.

I had an issue with one uS that caused it to fire 180deg out and correctly... at the same time. Updated the firmware and reloaded the tune and it ran perfect. WTF MS?!?!?!

I needed a 5k resistor when I was using the crank wheel and the VR circuit too. The cas uses the optical circuit though and none of the things I read or people I talked to thought the voltage was the issue. I tried a 5k resistor and the signal was non existent. So I moved on. Chased electrical noise for a while. Thought my MS was junk. Eventually I ended up using an air tool to spin the dizzy while I logged the signal. The stock wheel (low resolution) held sync. With the 24 tooth wheel it lost sync at 5200rpm like it was hitting a wall. I ended up making custom tooth wheels and testing them before I figured out that the circuit was just being overloaded. The right amount of resistance and it will rev to 9k. A little too much resistance and no signal. The adjustment pots made no difference. I can't remember if they are VR circuit only or not. Of the different cas I tried they all would loose sync at a different rpm from 3k to 5k and depending on which side of the wheel was facing up and the trigger poles. If you luck out and get the "right" cas, wheel, and megasquirt combination you may never see a problem. Looking back it seems almost obvious but at the time....what a nightmare. <-----this may be the only place on the interwebs where this information exists. Sorry for the thread highjack.
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deaner
Dane Aura
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PS4 controller


Re: Another XR4T build
April 30, 2017 06:19PM
No problem at all Mark! That info could very well be useful to myself and others some day!

Got some time to work on this thing a bit. Nothing major to show but small progress is still progress. Ordered the parts I need to get the motor to hold water and get it back together. I've decided to forgo pulling the head to check for flatness and just see what happens. I drowned my jeep last weekend out wheeling and I'm going to need garage space in the upcoming weeks to swap parts to a new rig. I'll post pics of me sinking my jeep haha. Whooopsies...

As the car sits now, it's gutted and degreased, just waiting on parts and then the motor will go back in, hopefully next weekend. Well, as best as I could get it. I couldn't get it up high enough to get my wand into the tunnel and above the diff. I figured once I get it moving I can always go back and touch it up. Leaps and bounds cleaner than what I started with. Another kind of cool surprise was the vent gauge pod I built for my Audi rally car, fits almost perfect! Little bit of trimming of the panel and it snapped right in. Go figure!
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deaner
Dane Aura
Professional Moderator
Location: Caldwell, ID
Join Date: 07/07/2013
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 337

Rally Car:
PS4 controller


Re: Another XR4T build
May 14, 2017 01:54AM
Been a crazy week! Didn't get to work on it as much as I'd hope to but got to spend all of my birthday today in the garage. Long story short, it's alive! Burns a bit of oil though which has me kind of scratching my head. Had kind a weird issue with the clutch as well. Smoked out my garage pretty well from the normal oils burning off from grubby hands on everything so went to pull it out. Pushed the clutch in, put it in gear, let the clutch out and nothing. Oh what the shit. I monkied with it some and realized the clutch was stuck disingaged(?). Could put it in gear and let the clutch out and it'd sit there running. Grrrr. Jacked it up, pulled the side cover and looked while my daughter cycled the clutch pedal, couldn't see anything odd. Lightly tapped on the pivot arm thinking maybe the cable was sticking or something. Didn't seem to do anything. Thought maybe tranny? What the hell! Put it on the ground, fired it up again and went through the gears with the clutch in, let the clutch out and it's sitting there idling in first gear haha. Weirdest thing. I blipped the throttle and then BAM it engages haha. Guess I just needed to let the eagle sing for a sec because it now runs and drives just fine. Go figure! Took it for a rip down the street.

I think there's something buggered up with the oil return from the turbo because it didn't smoke like this prior to pulling the motor. When i pulled the motor, it was leaking pretty good from the return, one bolt finger tight holding the return line on... lots of little hack shit I've found haha. THAT was its own adventure today. Found out at one point the PO stripped the threads out on one of the return holes on the return flange of the turbo and tapped it. Think they'd drill/tap out the other so it would match? Fuck no... oh! Thanks for tapping it to SAE too haha! One thing I wish I wouldn't have sent to the scrap yard when we moved out here was my bolts bucket. What an effing PITA trying to track down a single bolt out here haha.Whatever, it's together and runs. Comp test maybe tomorrow and then go from there. I'm pretty sure the turbo may need a rebuild.

Holy. Effing. Hell coolant lines! Everywhere! Next up is getting an IC setup, oil cooler and ditching all of these rediculous coolant and vacuum lines everywhere.

To do:
Relocate battery
Oil cooler
IC/shorty rad
Order TPS---->>>install
Wire gauges
Do a big one wheeled smoky burnout.
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