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Oil filter - before or after cooler?

Posted by Skye 
Skye
Skye Nott
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Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 15, 2006 11:05PM
Hmmmm interesting, Ford put the cooler before the filter in the GpA Cossie if I'm reading this right. Seems odd to me - my remote oil filter install sheet suggests filter then coole. Why would Ford do that? Any guesses?

PS Thanks to John for pointing me to this used Aeroquip fitting place in NC tonight, should save me a ton of dough

http://www.musclemotorsports.com/aeroquip.html

Skye




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open | download - turbofeedandcooler.jpg (128.7 KB)
turbofeedandcooler.jpg
Pete
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 15, 2006 11:31PM
Maybe they want the (given) pressure drop through the cooler to occur before the filter, to minimize the chance of the filter coming apart. Maybe.

I don't see why they went to the cooler first, either. You'd think that besides keeping crap out of the cooler, going filter first would result in cooler oil too. (The oil will lose heat in the filter assembly no matter what, but the cooler does a better job and you want the best cooler to be the last one)





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john vanlandingham
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 15, 2006 11:54PM
I can't understand why he doesn't just do as the drawing shows.



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Skye
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 15, 2006 11:54PM
It's in my nature to question authority winking smiley




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Pete
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 16, 2006 12:29AM
Hee hee.

Knowing the why will help greatly when there aren't any drawings to follow!

I never learned by rote very well either...





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john vanlandingham
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 16, 2006 12:58AM
Pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hee hee.
>
> Knowing the why will help greatly when there
> aren't any drawings to follow!
>
> I never learned by rote very well either...
do first, you might understand while doing.
Even if you don't understand the first time, the job is done and getting the job done is the important thing.

Understanding is a luxury.

>
>
>
> Pete Remner
> Cleveland, Ohio
> Converse All-Star (zero intention of rallying in
> the current US situation)
> 1978






John Vanlandingham
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Pete
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 16, 2006 01:15AM
I think I see it.

They go cooler first, because the oil flow to the turbo comes directly off of the filter housing.

This would be inherently stronger than hanging hoses off of a tee somewhere, or even a tee hardmounted to something. Vibration could kill it. The alternative is to just make a big beefy aluminum manifold, but one *already exists*, it's called the filter housing. Taking oil feed from the engine would also be possible, but not quite as elegant. Feeding fresh clean *cool* oil to the turbo is the priority.

So cooler first, filter second.

The nice long oil hose to the turbo might make swapping out easier, too, if it stayed as part of the turbo assembly. Fitting clear on the other side of the car and all, so someone else can worry about it.



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Skye
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Re: Turbo feed from remote filter
February 16, 2006 01:56AM
Ahh, that does make sense, well done Pete.

Well I guess the question then becomes, should I feed the turbo off the remote oil filter housing as well, and blank off the stock oil feed near the top rear of the block.

My concern with that would be siphoning off too much oil pressure that's supposed to be going back into the block, starving the top end, kablooie...

I suppose that could be mitigated by using a smaller hose size. I'm using AN-10 for the oil hoses, maybe a -8 or even -6 for the turbo? I wonder if the (#2) "union" has a restrictor. John? Got samples?

I wonder what the "turbo cutoff valve" is (#1). Maybe a manual cutoff for quick turbo changes without oil draining everywhere...



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Turbo feed from remote filter
February 16, 2006 02:28AM
Skye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ahh, that does make sense, well done Pete.
>
> Well I guess the question then becomes, should I
> feed the turbo off the remote oil filter housing
> as well, and blank off the stock oil feed near the
> top rear of the block.

tHIS IS EASIER TO LIVE WITH
>
> My concern with that would be siphoning off too
> much oil pressure that's supposed to be going back
> into the block, starving the top end, kablooie...

Top end gets too much oil in most cars, more so with the pump I put in the motor.
>
> I suppose that could be mitigated by using a
> smaller hose size. I'm using AN-10 for the oil
> hoses, maybe a -8 or even -6 for the turbo? I
> wonder if the (#2) "union" has a restrictor.
> John? Got samples?

Yeah there should be a restrictor in the feed hose down to about 1/4" id.
>
> I wonder what the "turbo cutoff valve" is (#1).
> Maybe a manual cutoff for quick turbo changes
> without oil draining everywhere...

No for turning off oil to turbo once the turbo has popped.
It'll drink all the oil for the motor in just a few miles the expensive motor go boom, no finish WRC event.
>
> ______
> Undercover Canadian evildoer
> Rally car's almost done I swear...
> www.rallyrace.net






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chris
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 16, 2006 04:04AM

> cooler oil too. (The oil will lose heat in the
> filter assembly no matter what, but the cooler
> does a better job and you want the best cooler to
> be the last one)

i'm not sure that it would make any difference. However, rate of temperature change depends on the temperature difference (delta T), so the cooler will lower the oil temp faster when the the difference between oil temp and ambient is greater. so maybe that was a factor for boreham.
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Scott Manley
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 16, 2006 12:55PM
Skye the stock oil pump is sufficent for a Ford 460 ci V8. It's only running at around 30% max ever. The oil feed fitting on the top of the turbo should be all the restrictor you'll need. Yes the top end doesn't need that much oil, even less with a roller and solid lifters. Did you upgrade the valve train from stock?

My friend Kory's XR, I believe, has the filter before the cooler and it works wonderfully. Once the engine is up to temp, the needle never moves no matter how hard you lean on it.



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Skye
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 16, 2006 03:39PM
This is all very helpful, thanks.

So, blocking off the stock turbo oil feed at the top back of the block (pictured) isn't going to hurt anything right? Not sure how the oil galleries are routed in the engine (no shop manual yet... bidding on one on ebay...), don't want to "dead end" the oil flow....

If it's OK to block off, then that makes a nice place to put the oil pressure sender. Unfortunately the sender I've got is M10x1 which clearly isn't the same (2nd pic, stock idiot light sender & turbo oil feed connector block)... anyone know what the thread is offhand so I can get a different sender?




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Attachments:
open | download - blockturbofeed.jpg (50.1 KB)
blockturbofeed.jpg
open | download - stockturbofeed.jpg (51 KB)
stockturbofeed.jpg
Skye
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Re: Turbo feed from remote filter
February 16, 2006 03:41PM
John, do you have adapters for the cossie turbo oil in & out, and blanking plugs for the unused coolant in & out? If so what are the oil connections, AN-?

Thanks




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Attachments:
open | download - turboconns.jpg (63.7 KB)
turboconns.jpg
NoCoast
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Re: Turbo feed from remote filter
February 16, 2006 04:11PM
Are you not going to run the coolant through it??? We've ran a no water turbo before but my understanding was that the passages that usually have water are now full of oil, and simply not running water would mean a much higher temp for the turbo.

If you don't get the one on ebay let me know. I got one sitting here unused at the moment that I could send for you to borrow. Send me an email if you want me to send it.



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john vanlandingham
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Re: Oil filter - before or after cooler?
February 16, 2006 04:59PM
The whole water cooled turbo is for cokinjg internally causedwhen like in the NE or Germany or France the high speed roads are VERY limited or pay and they have gas station and restarants in service area so you have putzes zoooming along in top gera foot down (tailgaiting) who can and do whip straight from fast land staright up to the pump and shut it down. THATS what the water cooling is for.
Ford expressly said don't run it it "introduces unneeded heat into the water cooling system".

Skye I have a little plate, a copy of Fords deal which is tapped for 1/4 NPT so we'll screw a male/male NPT to -6 adaptor in and use a normal -6 90 swivel end.



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