Hose Fittings

Hokay, so I'm starting to collect the bits needed to get the engine bay back togather, and I'm now thinking about all those hoses, and specifically, what style of fittings people use for them. So far my list has:

* Fuel (Filter, pumps, fuel rail, cell)
* Power Steering + Cooler
* Oil + Remote + Cooler + Turbo
* Brakes


Fuel will likely need what, AN fittings to work with most 'race-y' fuel pumps and filters these days?

Brakes: Single flare? Double Flare? Rick Flair? Bubble? Too many options...

Oil + PS: A local place here sells hydraulic hose and stocks tonnes of NPT and JIC fittings, so that'd be nice. But I can never seem to make NPT threads seal correctly on my air junk, and I don't like the idea of the car leaking oil everywhere, though it may technically be a Ford...

And of course, if anyone knows a good (cheap) purveyor of such fittings, it'd come mucho appreciated. There's a Parker store down the street, but he seems kind of steep to non-commercial purchasers like myself. So what'd you use on your car, and whhhhhhhyyyy?

Hey,

In Canada the options for cheap are somewhat limited. Cisco by the airport (Dixie and ?) has lots of stuff. Princess Auto? They were small when i lived up there but I have heard rumours.
Don't be afraid of the NPT. Even though it is not "supposed" to be used on race cars, it is impossible to avoid. I use the Loctite white goo.

Don't go overboard with the AN stuff except for on the brakes.

If/when you get a list together drop me a line. I have some good used/not abused AN -3 thru -12 reusable fittins that you would just have to buy ferrules for
Also too, JVL posted a link to a place in the S.E. that has good prices.

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Rich Howard
Indianapolis, Indiana
1967

Paddy, I'm doing everything in AN (-10 oil, -6 fuel, -3 brakes)
I think in the long run it will be easier (educated guess)

Fuel pumps and filters used M10 to AN6 adapters iirc
Fuel lines through passenger compartment 5/16 hard brake line, tube bender, flare tool

Oil cooler and fuel rail now have welded-on AN fittings

Used fittings here: http://www.musclemotorsports.com/aeroquip-used-line---ftgs.html

I'm almost done putting together my shopping list for oil system and engine bay fuel delivery.... I'll post it when I'm done if you want

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www.rallyrace.net

Hold on a second, what is the difference between a JIC fitting and a AN one? The more I read, the more I think they're the same, which would be nice, as Princess Auto carries a lot of JIC hardware...

Hmmm, seems to be the same:

JIC/AN. (Joint Industry Coucil / Army-Navy)
JIC/AN plumbing is the industry standard for automotive and aerospace use – all over the world. When properly assembled it will not leak, become loose, burst, collapse, wear through, corrode or wear out. It is heat and flame resistant, it will not chafe - it is specifically designed for the job. It is versatile and if treated with care, can be re-used. As most fittings are manufactured to a common standard, plumbing components rarely become obsolete. In summary: Steel, aluminium and stainless plumbing constitutes the best, safest and most economical way of doing the job properly. All JIC/AN fittings have a mating flare seat at 37º (see page 5) but are not interchangeable with some similar SAE fittings which have a flare seat at 45º. Most performance fittings employ the 37º flare seat but it is always advisable to check prior to assembly as these fittings will thread together but will not seat correctly, tightening the joint will damage the seat of both fittings and the joint will leak. This catalogue uses the “JIC” name to refer to the standard equipment but the term “AN“ is interchangeable. The single most common cause of a leaking hose is the insufficient or over tightening of the hose end, if in doubt, call us and we‘ll guide you. Check the general recommendations for sealing any particular fitting and always fit a sealing washer or apply compound where specified. If unsure, you can usually order pre-assembled hoses to your specifications at little or no extra cost. JIC fittings do not require additional sealing compound or washers.

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www.rallyrace.net

Well, JIC here I come then, as they seem to be much easier to find from the Farm supply places around here...

But that final shopping list of what you used would be handy. Rather not have to drive out there 5 times if at all possible...

Poirer said it all.

But..... In the fuel cell car porn you posted here your hard line setup freaked me out. Wavin' up in the air like that. Terminate those units on the trunk floor. Start your soft line there. Make a bracket to tie down the union. Tyrap blocks are plenty. A man in a hurry - three holes in the floor, couple 'o' tyraps. Done.
Don't know how you feel about the barb fitting cursefit hose. Bitch to jam those on. Never feel 100% safe. Swedge on stuff is cheaper than reusable specially for fuel system where unless it is a really big shunt it is good for the life of the car. Carry a couple of reusables and 4' of line for spares.

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Rich Howard
Indianapolis, Indiana
1967

sKYE, WE USED 3/8TH" HARD LINE FOR THE FUEL AND RETURN.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Oh, well it was a year and a half ago, i was only 1/16 off

Rich, the fuel lines at the back with the cell aren't done, it's just roughed out, thanks for the tips.

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www.rallyrace.net

According to this:

http://www.parker.com/tfd/fittingsolutions/ANFITTINGS.pdf

JIC and AN are very similar but not interchangeable.

To quote:

"AN flare and 37° industrial flare [JIC] function identically. In many cases they appear to be functionally interchangeable, but they are not."

The threads are just different enough.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

But if you read on in that document, it shows the only real difference is that true AN-spec stuff has radiused root threads, to allow better fatigue life in aircraft use. It goes on to say that the substitution (JIC/AN) would be allowed for ground support/land/sea applications only, and while the rally car will hopefully see a little air time in the future, i'd rank it as being 99.9% ground-based transportation.

For those interested, Princess Auto has a pretty big selection of JIC fittings in their catalogue, and my local place (Mississauga) has even more in stock. Not to mention the free hose making...

PAddy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But if you read on in that document, it shows the
> only real difference is that true AN-spec stuff
> has radiused root threads, to allow better fatigue
> life in aircraft use. It goes on to say that the
> substitution (JIC/AN) would be allowed for ground
> support/land/sea applications only, and while the
> rally car will hopefully see a little air time in
> the future, i'd rank it as being 99.9%
> ground-based transportation.
>
> For those interested, Princess Auto has a pretty
> big selection of JIC fittings in their catalogue,
> and my local place (Mississauga) has even more in
> stock. Not to mention the free hose making...

In short IN THE REAL WORLD, for our purposes, they are identical.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

As it turns out... you're right (duh).

The fittings I'd tried before were some weirdo different thread fittings and after that I didn't bother to look into things further.

I acquired some fittings last weekend and tried them with ANs, and they threaded right up.

Of course, the hardware store didn't sell 37" flare, they sell 45", and they look a lot alike... the hydraulics shops around here should do nicely, though.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

I would stay away from NPT (National Pipe Thread) and BSPT (British Standard Pipe Tapered) fittings wherever possible. Sooner or later, no matter what you use to seal the threads, they will leak. Also, their vibration resistance, in comparison to other types of thread forms (non-tapered threads, NPT and BSPT being tapered thread forms) is poor. Note that there is a version of NPT termed NPTF. The "F" denotes "Fuel." The thread profile is slightly different than on a standard NPT fitting and is intended to eliminate the leakage path between the crests and roots of the mating threads. The crests and roots of NPTF fittings make contact with each other before the thread flanks make contact. Upon torquing the connection that gap is filled. The thread deformation makes NPTF fittings a one-time-use fitting.

As with any tapered pipe thread fitting, use a Teflon based sealant to prevent leakage. The two best ones are Loktite PST (Pipe sealant in a Tube) and the red liquid Loktite Pipe sealant that comes in a bottle, Note that the liquid pipe thread sealant is not to be confused with their standard thread locking compounds. As smeone else mentioned, thread sealant is used only on pipe threads, never on the straight thread connections found on the port and tube ends of the other fitting types.

If your component has pipe thread ports, it is unlikely that you can re-machine the ports to a better port type and you will be forced to use an adaptor with pipe thread on one end.

I have over 20 years of experience in the hydraulics industry. We have abandoned pipe threads due to their problem with leakage.

Fittings (also termed adaptors) are divided into port end types (for connection into components) and tube end types (for attachment to tubing or hoses).

The 37 degree SAE flare (ISO J514) (formerly the 37 degree JIC flare) is a decent tube end connection for our purposes in running brake and fuel lines. The 45 degree SAE flare (yes, it used to be the 45 degree JIC flare and is also described by SAE J514) was intended for pneumatic, refrigeration, DOT, and other (comparitively) low pressure applications. The 37 degree flare is rated for higher pressures, size for size, than the 45 degree flare design.

A superior tube end type is the O-ring face seal, termed ORS and ORFS (SAE J1453).

When connecting to a port in a component, the thread types preferred over a tapered thread is 1) the SAE O-ring boss (OR (ISO 11926 and SAE J1926); 2) the BSPP Flat Face Port (British Standard Pipe Parallel) (ISO 1179); 3) the BSPP/JIS (JIS = Japanese Industrial Standard) O-ring Boss (ISO 228-1, BS 2779, and JIS B202); 4) Metric Straight Thread (ISO 9974), and 5) the relatively new Metric Straight Thread ORB port (ISO 6149). These port connections all allow for an elastomer seal. In the case of ORB type ports the O-ring is contained on the fitting and the O-ring fits into a chamfer in the port of the component. In the case of the metric and standard BSPP adaptors, the O-ring fits into a groove in the adaptor or is inside a metal support washer. Note that with the metric and BSPP adaptors there are four methods of sealing and only two use an O-ring. In the other stypes eith a metal crush washer is used or the fitting profile includes a deformable metal cutting surface, which makes the fitting a one use fitting. The advantage of an elastomer seal is superior sealing is achieved and the elastomer can be replaced, renewing the sealing qualities of the fitting. Note that the elastomer seal must be compatible with the fluid being conveyed.

Compression fittings fall into tube end connections. The Swagelok fitting design is excellent. It offers the advantage of being a gaugable fitting. Along with the fittings you need, you purchase a go/no-go gauge. This fitting is tightned to a position. By doing so you do not over or under tighten the fitting (typical when heavy wall tubing is used). Under tightening will allow for tube pullout and over tightening, typical when thin wall tubing is used) will cause tube deformation and subsequent failure due to pressure cycles or vibration.

A second popular compression fitting design is the 24 degree flareless cone. There is one inch based specification and several metric based specs. The metric specs vary with the tube wall thickness being used.

In regard to materials of fittings/adaptors used for brake and fuel service, carbon steel and stainless steel, in my opinion, are superior to aluminum. Granted, aluminum fittings are much lighter than steel fittings, but aluminum galls. For that matter, so does stanless steel, but it easy enough to use 316 bodies and 304 tube nuts when using stainless steel fittings.

When selecting tubing, ensure the wall thickness meets the pressure rating requirements at an acceptable design factor. A 4:1 design factor should be suitable for brake systems. I have never installed a pressure gauge in a brake system, but as I recall, working pressures of 1500 psi are not uncommon.

Parker and Aeroquip are the two premier brands of fittings found in the US and Canada. Check your yellow pages for distributors or call a local hydraulic distributor. Not all fluid power distributors sell fittings, but if they don't they know who does in your area.

For further technical information check the technical section of Parker's Catalog 4300 which also contains information on tube routing. Parker also publishes an excellent booklet on tube bending. The Aeorquip hose and fitting catalog contains a good section on routing hoses and analyzing hose failures. Gates is another excellent hose and fitting supplier.

And just to be a pain...

The plated steel fittings look nice in the bins at the store but quickly corrode once installed in an unprotected area of the car. They'll still seal even after they've gone rusty but any chance of re-using them is gone.

Stainless ones are pretty, re-usable and expensive. Aluminum ones are pretty but a bit fragile and easy to round the corners on. For adaptors, nipples and what have you I like brass, it seals well, doesn't corrode and is cheap -- it can't take the high pressures of the braking system though.

Opinions vary on the tubing itself, I prefer using teflon for oil and fuel -- keep in mind that teflon runs one dash size (1/16" smaller than rubber lined hose. If you're going to use a rubber lined hose -- be very careful to select one that is chemically resistant, some of the ones that say they're fuel resistant are not happy about the ethanol that been showing up in our gas over the past few years.

Cheers, Ted

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Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec