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Circlip coming loose...

Posted by Morten 
Morten
Morten
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Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 366

Rally Car:
1974 Dodge Colt



Circlip coming loose...
March 01, 2006 11:05PM
This is a continuation of paint, clutch cable...

When disassembling my engine, I pushed the cylinder out the top of the block. As the piston was being pushed out, I noticed that the one of the cilclips fell out and onto my garage floor.

I'm keeping an open mind in that there was a mechanical failure that caused this, but after talking to the owner of a machine shop today he told me that there is no way that the clip was properly seated when the motor was built.

This isn't intended to be a pissing match, but rather one that JVL steps up to the plate and accepts accountability for his engine build.

In order to facilitate open discussion on this I ask :

What else other than improper installation could have caused the circlip to come loose ?
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Attachments:
open | download - worn-circlip.jpg (44 KB)
worn-circlip.jpg
open | download - Circlip-groove-in-piston.jpg (74.2 KB)
Circlip-groove-in-piston.jpg
open | download - Circlip-damage-on-cylinder.jpg (44.3 KB)
Circlip-damage-on-cylinder.jpg
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 14,036

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 01:23AM
Ok Morten, here's the deal:
Bring your block and crank and pistons and rods and I'll look at them and see what course of action can be taken.

You want it assembled with new oil pump, chains, skids, guides etc, fine, get them.

Want the new cam installed, same thing.

But that's the only offer.
I will not even begin to consider paying some other shop for their work, that's flat absurd so don't begin to imagine that.

If the cylinder is damaged badly I'll search for a fresh block or liner the hole.

You have been offered a compromise.

You still have to find what caused the loss of oil pressure.





John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Jens
Jens
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Join Date: 01/25/2006
Posts: 525


Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 09:39AM
Morten Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm keeping an open mind in that there was a
> mechanical failure that caused this......

Really?

> but after
> talking to the owner of a machine shop today he
> told me that there is no way that the clip was
> properly seated when the motor was built.

Everyone's an expert, eh?


> What else other than improper installation could
> have caused the circlip to come loose ?

Lots of stuff:
Careless installation.
Wrist pin too long.
Wrist pin too short.
Piston improperly machined.
Piston improperly deburred.
Wrong circlip packaged with pistons.
Cheap ass pistons.
Etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, improper installation is possible. Been there, done that.

I've also seen all of the above and more.

I've seen free-floaters that were a few thousandths too short pound the clip right out of the piston.

I've seen wrist pins a few thousandths too long that caused the clip to look and feel installed, but it wasn't.

I've seen clips that were a few thousandths larger than the groove. Although the clips looked seated, they weren't.

I'm not taking sides here, but there are many possibilities other than improper installation.

If you paid a grand or less for the engine, then tough shit. You get what you pay for. If you paid 5,000+ for the engine then everything should have been inspected, mic'd and you are owed something.

Sheesh.....

Like I've said... this forum is like, well, dude... a cluster-copulation.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2006 09:45AM by Jens.
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Morten
Morten
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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1974 Dodge Colt



Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 09:47AM
I appreciate the gesture John, but it isn't feesable.

Round trip to your place is 360 miles and it would take 2 trips (one to drop off and one to pick up), plus fuel and time.

It's taken me to take my emgine to a machine shop, for you to offer anything. They've already started working on it.

I think it's fair that you bare the cost of parts and labour for the circlip failure portion of the build.
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Jens
Jens
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Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 10:00AM
That's not how it works, Morty. If you don't give the builder the opportunity to inspect and repair the engine, then you pay for someone else to do it.

How you return the engine (delivery, shipping, etc) is up to you. If the engine builder screwed it up, then perhaps they will compensate you for bringing back the engine (but rarely).

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sagsert
Mustafa Samli
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Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 10:06AM
Morty,

You said you are a woodworker, no ?

Make a crate with the lumber you have or can buy at the lumber yard, call a freight company and send it to JVL, for 360 miles it won't cost a fortune. Besides if you show up at JVL's door with this much animosity between the two of you, I doubt anything amicable will be accomplished.





Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors
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Morten
Morten
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1974 Dodge Colt



Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 10:28AM
Mustafa,

Sounds amicable... but the engine has already been dropped off with the machine shop.

The offer stands, for JVL to pay for the circlip failure.

Failing that,

To pay me what it would have cost to build a crate, and the cost of return shipping. (which would probably cost more than the parts / labour for machining)

I hate saying "cost to build crate" because I feel people should help each other out. The stage was pretty much set though when JVL added $60 to my bill for "push dead car at night", from the tow dolly onto his property.

If JVL would have offered something last week, we'd be in a different situation.
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Jens
Jens
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Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 10:30AM
sagsert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Besides if you show up at JVL's door with
> this much animosity between the two of you, I
> doubt anything amicable will be accomplished.


After reading this post http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,1878,2010#msg-2010 I think Morty better stay safe by staying in Canada.

Cluster, cluster, cluster.....

Reading this is more fun than Special Stage.

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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 14,036

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 10:31AM
From my door to the border is 127 miles.
All human habitation in Canada stops within 5 to 8 miles from the border.
It isn't that.

I personally think there's some sort of deep dark secret why Morty CAN't risk crossing the border.

Now as to the difficulty of driving all that (way less than it seems) distance, most of you guys know that my left shoulder and shoulder blade are ripped to shit and nearly, and increasingly, useless and so the ability to exert force has declined drastically.Hell the ability to hold a tea cup in left hand is nearlly gone.
Well I have a guy from North Vancouver's Saab 96 here and since he has seen how hard its getting, he's driving down with his side-kick Tony and staying here so some heavy stuff can get done.

Somehow THEY can get down and INTO the US.

So there it stands.
Morten, I am not going to pay another shop retail for what I do daily and what I get done locally at wholesale prices.

IF there was something wrong that _I_ did, then my offer is that _I_ will fix WHAT _I_ did.

That's it.

By the way the pistons are forged Mahle units made in Brasil.





John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Morten
Morten
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1974 Dodge Colt



Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 10:46AM
I'll let you know what the costs are when it's back together, and you can compare the pricing I get with the wholesale cost it would have cost you.

Perhaps at that time, you may decide to chip in ?
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Jens
Jens
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Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 11:07AM
Morten Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps at that time, you may decide to chip in ?


Wow... in one thread you basically tell him to go screw himself, then in this thread you ask him to chip in.

I'm going to have to pull out a DSMIV and see if I can find a description of your personality disorder, or if I have discovered a new disorder that has yet to be described in the scientific literature.

This is rich.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2006 11:07AM by Jens.
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Morten
Morten
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Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: 01/11/2006
Age: Possibly Wise
Posts: 366

Rally Car:
1974 Dodge Colt



Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 11:21AM
Jens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Wow... in one thread you basically tell him to go
> screw himself, then in this thread you ask him to
> chip in.
>
> I'm going to have to pull out a DSMIV and see if I
> can find a description of your personality
> disorder, or if I have discovered a new disorder
> that has yet to be described in the scientific
> literature.
>
> This is rich.

Jens I think you're getting the threads confused.




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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 14,036

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 11:47AM
Morten Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll let you know what the costs are when it's
> back together, and you can compare the pricing I
> get with the wholesale cost it would have cost
> you.
>
> Perhaps at that time, you may decide to chip in ?
My TIME is whatever I want to charge myself.
You ARE a dull boy aren't you.
I made my offer, its the norm in the business and that stands.

You have declined the offer.
YOU have decided on your own couse of action.
Seems like no further communication OR ENDLESS POSTS are needed.






John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Morten
Morten
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Location: Vancouver, BC
Join Date: 01/11/2006
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1974 Dodge Colt



Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 12:14PM
Hmmmm I was strictly refering to parts, I've never heard of a wholesale labour cost !

What did you do for Pat when his engine prematurely went ?
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Merkur



Re: Circlip coming loose...
March 02, 2006 01:35PM
There's no such thing as premature engine failure in a rally car. Sometimes they last 5000 miles, sometimes 500.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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