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Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140

Posted by hudson 
hudson
Andrew McNally
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Join Date: 01/08/2006
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Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 21, 2006 12:33AM
So I'm back to thinking about turning one of my 140s into a Targa car again. Some guy was talking about putting b23 heads on b20s on Turbobricks which got me to go to www.targanewfoundland.com and have a gander at the new rules for the modified class.

While there is a rule stating you can't go from pushrod to OHC, they're now allowing (I'm 99% sure it's new anyways) alternating from carb-fuel injection with free engine and ignition management. So I'm thinking 48 DCOE style TBs with some form of programable engine/ignition management.

I understand the reasons put forth as to why running a 140 is a bad idea (parts, slow steering, etc). But I've got two solid enough chassis, and a shitload of parts. I also don't plan on doing much other than the Targa race yearly and am at the point where I doubt I'll want a 35-40 year old carburated car as a summer daily driver anymore.

I'm not terribly excited about sinking 10k or more into an engine (a properly prepared head is going to run 2-3k alone). Any thoughts? I've got a 1968 145 and a 1971 142 both in the "what the hell are you going to do with me now" stage.





Andrew M
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 21, 2006 11:45AM
Andrew, 2-3k for a head?
Exactly what will it give you in return?

Expressed in sec/km.

You could do a "root around yourself" so called "porting job" get the comp up a bunch, unshroud the valves (big valves) and call it --->>GOOD E-nuf.

Now express what THAT would give in ->difference sec/km<-- from the 2-3k head.

Now compare costs.

Now compare prize winnings.





John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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hudson
Andrew McNally
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Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 21, 2006 07:55PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Andrew, 2-3k for a head?
> Exactly what will it give you in return?
>
> Expressed in sec/km.
>
> You could do a "root around yourself" so called
> "porting job" get the comp up a bunch, unshroud
> the valves (big valves) and call it
> --->>GOOD E-nuf.
>
> Now express what THAT would give in
> ->difference sec/km<-- from the 2-3k head.
>
> Now compare costs.
>
> Now compare prize winnings.

You have a good point there John. I like how you bring things back to the real world.

I'm looking at cleaning out the fender stock from a body panel shop that's closing around here. They have about 8 fenders or around 4 pairs. I figure if I can get a favourable enough price I should be set for fenders for a very long time. Fenders are the hardest/most expensive body part to come by.

I was thinking of building the 1968 wagon up first. It requires a little less rust repair and is a lot less straight. I know I will have to update the front suspension to the later style. Other than that are there any major points against the wagon versus a sedan (I figure if you replace the glass with lexan there won't be much of a weight difference)? I'm 99% sure there are no crazy fuel cell firewall/break rules.

Thanks



Andrew M
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 21, 2006 10:08PM
hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Andrew, 2-3k for a head?
> > Exactly what will it give you in return?
> >
> > Expressed in sec/km.
> >
> > You could do a "root around yourself" so
> called
> > "porting job" get the comp up a bunch,
> unshroud
> > the valves (big valves) and call it
> > --->>GOOD E-nuf.
> >
> > Now express what THAT would give in
> > ->difference sec/km<-- from the 2-3k
> head.
> >
> > Now compare costs.
> >
> > Now compare prize winnings.
>
> You have a good point there John. I like how you
> bring things back to the real world.

Yeah tell that to the guy "Tim Ekrush" on SS.com
Seems I have another Troll like the asshole from up in the islands of BC
who did NOTHING but try and pick fights and who claqimed I was the devil incarnate.
>
> I'm looking at cleaning out the fender stock from
> a body panel shop that's closing around here.
> They have about 8 fenders or around 4 pairs. I
> figure if I can get a favourable enough price I
> should be set for fenders for a very long time.
> Fenders are the hardest/most expensive body part
> to come by.
>
> I was thinking of building the 1968 wagon up
> first. It requires a little less rust repair and
> is a lot less straight. I know I will have to
> update the front suspension to the later style.
> Other than that are there any major points against
> the wagon versus a sedan (I figure if you replace
> the glass with lexan there won't be much of a
> weight difference)? I'm 99% sure there are no
> crazy fuel cell firewall/break rules.

Yeaqgh why not a wagon.
Long before these folks with their fugly AMC Pacer look-a-like Subie "Sprot-wagons" began thinking they were innovative a Saab 95 wagon had won in Monte Carlo with Karlsson (1960).

Go for it and attack the head yourself. With proper carbide cutters, and some good layout marker, and a bit of thinking, you can get 90% of what you could with a soooooper-doooper head job. There's the rest of the pig-motor to think of too.
Oh there should be available very soon very affordable 6.3" c-c rods which would allow for 31.4mm comp height pistons vs the stock 46.3.
15 mm less piston, much less weight, maybe a max of approx 290g vs stock 670 or so.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew McNally
> Hamilton ON
> 26






John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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hudson
Andrew McNally
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Posts: 1,217


Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 21, 2006 10:55PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah tell that to the guy "Tim Ekrush" on SS.com
> Seems I have another Troll like the asshole from
> up in the islands of BC
> who did NOTHING but try and pick fights and who
> claqimed I was the devil incarnate.

Can't please everybody!

> Yeaqgh why not a wagon.
> Long before these folks with their fugly AMC
> Pacer look-a-like Subie "Sprot-wagons" began
> thinking they were innovative a Saab 95 wagon had
> won in Monte Carlo with Karlsson (1960).
>
> Go for it and attack the head yourself. With
> proper carbide cutters, and some good layout
> marker, and a bit of thinking, you can get 90% of
> what you could with a soooooper-doooper head job.
> There's the rest of the pig-motor to think of
> too.
> Oh there should be available very soon very
> affordable 6.3" c-c rods which would allow for
> 31.4mm comp height pistons vs the stock 46.3.
> 15 mm less piston, much less weight, maybe a max
> of approx 290g vs stock 670 or so.

Are these rods Volvo, or? Same bearing size? Lighter and shorter pistons sound great. More displacement even better. I'm allowed 20% either way of stock displacement, so 2.4l.

Interestingly enough I haven't got a reply yet saying no to 16v DOHC heads on b20s in the modified class. So either they just haven't read it yet, or they are actually considering it.

I'll definitely have to look at doing the head myself or maybe myself and some help. I've got 4 heads lying around.. none of which are the desirable casting, but would be great to learn on.

Just got confirmation that there are no wacko safety rules for wagons or hatch backs.



Andrew M
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30ish
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 21, 2006 11:34PM
The rods are intended for B21/B23 but the bearing and journal and everything is the same between the push-rod motor and the OHC, as are the dimensions of everything except the B20 is a 22mm pin and the OEM B21/23 were mostly 24mm.
These rods will be made for .927 Chevvy pin to give folks a wide range of choices of pins at reasonable cost, so a guy making a revving NA motor could do a 62 gram taper wall 2.25 long pin and a turbo crazed maniac could do a thick wall 165 gram pin.
As for bore, I know that guys go 3mm without problems and that gives 3.5" + 3 mm=
2122cc.

Makes it nice that you could use the same rods in a B23 when you finally do a 240.

Seeeeee, I'm always thinking long term.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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hudson
Andrew McNally
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Posts: 1,217


Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 22, 2006 12:45AM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The rods are intended for B21/B23 but the bearing
> and journal and everything is the same between the
> push-rod motor and the OHC, as are the dimensions
> of everything except the B20 is a 22mm pin and the
> OEM B21/23 were mostly 24mm.
> These rods will be made for .927 Chevvy pin to
> give folks a wide range of choices of pins at
> reasonable cost, so a guy making a revving NA
> motor could do a 62 gram taper wall 2.25 long pin
> and a turbo crazed maniac could do a thick wall
> 165 gram pin.
> As for bore, I know that guys go 3mm without
> problems and that gives 3.5" + 3 mm=
> 2122cc.
>
> Makes it nice that you could use the same rods in
> a B23 when you finally do a 240.
>
> Seeeeee, I'm always thinking long term.


Heheh

Will it make you happy to know that I've been stocking up everytime I see cheap late b20/b21/b23 rod bearings? (there is a slight difference between early and late b20 rod bearings.. as far as I know, I believe it coincides with the change from a 6 bolt to 8 bolt crank.. I've got both) I have no problem with going to a 240 eventually.. I must agree they have several advantages. When I've completely wrecked the 145, gained some valuable seat time and want to make a nice car out of the 142 we will talk about what 240 is best.



Andrew M
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 22, 2006 10:53PM
Well one thing good will be that you WILL LOVE the rack and pinion steering and by time you've wadded the poooor innocent 140s to rat-shit, Kevvi Hoikansanalainenen and I'll will have worked out adapting Xratty 2.6 turn racks.



John Vanlandingham
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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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Skye
Skye Nott
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Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 23, 2006 01:58AM
So if the racks become unobtanium I'll know who to blame.





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hudson
Andrew McNally
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Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 23, 2006 12:10PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well one thing good will be that you WILL LOVE the
> rack and pinion steering and by time you've wadded
> the poooor innocent 140s to rat-shit, Kevvi
> Hoikansanalainenen and I'll will have worked out
> adapting Xratty 2.6 turn racks.

A rack in a 140 would be really nice for sure! After that the only real major advantage I can see the 240 having in this particular race is that you could run the stock turbo in many classes.



Andrew M
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Back to thinking about a Targa/Rally Volvo 140
March 23, 2006 07:28PM
Andrew the stock turbo is a piece of moldering ka-ka and should be buried in a deep hole which you then fill with mooose-dung.

Stock classes are to be avoided since nearly every car in stock classes P and PGT and GpN are usually willfully non-compliant and the loudest advocate, big lying hypocritical cheaters so avoid them and the classes.

Gp2, Gp5, Open are the only classes that make any sense.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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hudson
Andrew McNally
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Cheapest/Easiest powerplant for the class?
March 23, 2006 11:09PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Andrew the stock turbo is a piece of moldering
> ka-ka and should be buried in a deep hole which
> you then fill with mooose-dung.
>
> Stock classes are to be avoided since nearly every
> car in stock classes P and PGT and GpN are usually
> willfully non-compliant and the loudest advocate,
> big lying hypocritical cheaters so avoid them and
> the classes.
>
> Gp2, Gp5, Open are the only classes that make any
> sense.

At Targa there are 3 main classes standard/modified/unlimited.. It then gets further broken down by engine size and year of car.

If I go into modified. The rules are: b18 or b20 block, heads are free, but I can't convert from pushrod to OHC (trying to argue that just for fun), and my max disp allowed would be 2.4l.

unlimited has like 3 rules, basically no nascar cars.

Since I don't have any motors together at the moment what in your mind would be the easiest/cheapest power?

I imagine if I went into open I would have to have a lot more power to be competitive than in modified, although I won't be competitive my first few goes anyways.

Would I be best off saying fuck it to modified and just put in a stock/refreshed b23 with a decent turbo? Having $1500 or less into a motor sounds fantastic.

I guess the best answer is 8v b23 + turbo as lively as I can make it for what I can afford. And then when JVL turns out to be right and I run a 240 it will drop right in smiling smiley

EDIT: there's already 3 pre 74 volvos in modified running snorting B20s (at least one is 2.4l)



Andrew M
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2006 11:12PM by hudson.
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