Specs on Focus rotors

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is that a Protege knuckle? How much tork you
> putting down? After twisting splines on Protege
> splines, I now have a neat solution for a
> bulletproof (so far) front drive arrangement.
>
> CX7 outer joints (8-ball) with huge splines
> (machined down to fit the Protege seals) and RX8
> (rear) hub flanges (machined down to fit into
> Protege bearings). Press all the guts into a
> Protege knuckle.

That sounds slick but I'm going to have very little Mazda left soon. Those were re-machined GTX knuckles that now belong to Jack Russell.

I'm getting even more stupid. Jay has convinced me that GTR wheel bearings (those big double row unit-bearings that come in the MX-6 and Ford Probe) are the way to go. Now I'm just going to go with custom billet Aluminum knuckles / GTR wheel bearings / and custom spindles that will mate to the new Toyota GT4 axles...full frankencar. The Alltrac axles and spindle splines are huge just like the CX7.

I've got the in-car video of MJ's rotor exploding on that insane fast stage at Olympus. Luckily for Matthew and Jeremy it was on a right 4 or 5, and not a hairpin or they'd have had some serious problems.

A hole in the floorboard and some wooden shoes would be better than the stock XR4ti brakes.

---

Grant Hughes

Ok, so, Basically, what your saying is its a heat expansion thing (makes perfect sense) and that the wilwoods are two flexy to remain rigid enough to create the friction to bring it up to that kinda temp?

But if you were to through AP's on there, you'd start to have problems?

Or is it a prolonged thing and the wilwoods GET hot enough, but are too flexy to remain hot long enough for it to matter and kinda go from hot enough to hot to hot enough?

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

NoCoast Wrote:
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> I've got the in-car video of MJ's rotor exploding
> on that insane fast stage at Olympus. Luckily for
> Matthew and Jeremy it was on a right 4 or 5, and
> not a hairpin or they'd have had some serious
> problems.

I have what's left of the disk and the pads on my desk at work. The pads can still be reused but that disk... well... couldnt cope with the instant heat that the pad produced, and quickly created a pedal judder and developed an uneven temp distribution that it couldnt take shape anymore and "opened" up and that crack hit the side of the pad and at 116mph it just wanted to keep going so it destroyed the caliper, damper reservoir, wheel, and an otherwise possible 1st place.

> A hole in the floorboard and some wooden shoes
> would be better than the stock XR4ti brakes.

Lol that bad. Flinstone's style eh?

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, so, Basically, what your saying is its a heat
> expansion thing (makes perfect sense) and that the
> wilwoods are two flexy to remain rigid enough to
> create the friction to bring it up to that kinda
> temp?
>
> But if you were to through AP's on there, you'd
> start to have problems?
>
> Or is it a prolonged thing and the wilwoods GET
> hot enough, but are too flexy to remain hot long
> enough for it to matter and kinda go from hot
> enough to hot to hot enough?
>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
> My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle

The problem with the wilwoods is that they were originally for dirt track late models and that type of racing. Light cars on lose surfaces and no money racers.

They're cheap cheap cheap aluminium, not forged, 2 piece, boxy not very stiff design, shitty seals, and pistons that gall the bores when the caliper flexes. And boy does it flex. Tons of pad taper on the leading edge and at the periphery. Besides that, they're good bang for the buck Better than CNC, rotora, endless, US brake and all those small companies getting stuff made in their basements.

As for the disks and hats, its not just the expansion rate issues. But on a full floating system you get more efficient torque takeout. Improved control and release. Eliminates vibration and pulsation. Reduced heat transfer to the hub. Reduced piston knock-back. Reduced drag.

Here's the latest and greatest.

Wow, thats a pretty crazy setup. So that ring just holds the teeth together and the fact that it's a circle holds the parts together. Thats pretty sweet.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Cosworth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Whats the biggest reason the not simple folk
> use
> > floating mount? or whatever the slotted
> mounts are
> > called?
> >
> > Feisty Peacock?
> >
> > My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle
> Its called a floating mount. Either with Bobbins,
> T bobbins, or disk in hat (direct drive). The
> benefits are many and they're all related to the
> different thermanl expanssion rates on the disk,
> hat and hardware. Rigid is fine for near stock
> applications where the main concern is just the
> weight's savings and I guess cost savings. But on
> a heavy duty application, the disk with the heat
> will grow differently than the hat and things will
> start getting out of shape. From snapping the
> hardware to warpage to pedal judering from the
> vibration on the disk and in some cases completely
> destroying the corner from an exploding disk.
>
> Thats a basic explanation. If you want more
> thermal and metalurgy details, I can get to it but
> not today.
>

Gotta say: Yes everything you say are true facts BUT the significance is exaggerated to the extreme.

Exaggerated to the point of being beyond applicable to 99.9% of RALLY DRIVERS.

I work off of what is called praxis or proven previous practice.

Here's some of the facts I worked from:

Plenty of WRC level cars were using plain old bolted front rotors well into the late 90s---last time I could see and handle and measure actual WRC parts.
I've seen and handled Ford, Mitsubishi, Subaru and VW, seen many other.

Plenty of WRC level guys went real gawddam fast with rotors these dimensions---or slightly narrower (ie 27mm) rotors, hats and calipers.

Most privateer North American cars use microscopic, skinny, often rusty OEM cast iron rotors.

Most privateer North American cars use stock horrible sliding pin type iron calipers

Although average MPH on North American stages is often close to the average for the WRC series due to the essentially straight nature of North American roads (RELATIVE to extremely narrow, extremely twisty stages in many places--from actual observation and driving myself), MOST privateer Noprth American crews do not drive anywhere near the level of even average WRC GpA drivers in the mid 90s.

THUS:
discs, hats, and calipers differing only in the BOLT CIRCLE from mid/late 90s WRC designs and dimesnions, if done for a reasonable price---OUGHT TO BE an affordable and useful upgrade in terms of performance, control and lifespan for privateer Xratty drivers.

Thus all your talk of all sorts of " snapping the
> hardware to warpage to pedal judering from the
> vibration on the disk and in some cases completely
> destroying the corner from an exploding disk." is very likely to be groundless worries for those who would use this set up.

In other words Paul, everything is a compromise and the fancy, trick floating stuff is extremely expensive and obvious overkill for anybody buying things themselves at the level of driving---and braking--in North American rallies currently.

(And yes I know many folks roast the shit out of their brakes because they think if they have their left foot on the brake ALL THE TIME then they musdt be a hero....but the quality of the driving is belied by the results of the top placing drivers when they go elsewhere with competition, and that has been demonstrated amply previously).

In clear English: Get serious.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thanks Paul for more info regarding floating setups. I'd often wondered what the benefits were.
I don't think Paul is saying that people running Wilwood stuff and solid mounted custom hats and rotors are driving death traps either. He even said it's definitely better than stock, which is still what so many people drive on.
We're MJ's rotors ground as well?
My entire brake system cost around $3000. That's 4 pots front and rear, aluminum hat and thick vented rotors (285X32.5 and 280X20), dual masters, hydraulic handbrake, adjuster, and braided teflon lines throughout the entire car. I probably couldn't have built just the front setup using AP or Alcon and floating rotors for the same money, so for a privateer I think my setup is way reasonable. I can definitely tell you they are confidence inspiring!

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Paul for more info regarding floating
> setups. I'd often wondered what the benefits
> were.
> I don't think Paul is saying that people running
> Wilwood stuff and solid mounted custom hats and
> rotors are driving death traps either. He even
> said it's definitely better than stock, which is
> still what so many people drive on.


I read "Rigid is fine for near stock applications"
And see that as absurd in the extreme.
Extreme.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Was MJ using a stock rotor? aftermarket 2-piece rotor?

I thought he was running the Subaru 4 pot set-up?

Might be good info so others don't end up in the same boat?

---

Chris

MJ was on reground stock 4 pot stuff I believe.

---

Grant Hughes

John your post is true about the late 90's and the WRC stuff. But why get all butt hurt over it? I wasnt knocking your product. I even said it was cool that you could make that shit. For fuck sakes I even bought your stuff before, I was just commenting on it and it developed from there into the benefits of rigid vs floating. But if you want to dwell into brake tech that is rigidly mounted, then look at the type of AL that they used on those setups. And its definetely not powder metal or billet hardware. Plus they used to break a lot of tabs on the disks back then. And they were always swaping out parts at service just for reliability's sake. On the other hand guys here want it to last full seasons Like me.

Yes MJ was running OE 2006 WRX disks. It was a case with no rhym nor reason. I talked to our office in the UK since they deal with Prodrive on a daily basis and have more data. And even they said WTF... most of the guys use the homologated AP but those that still use the Sumitomo calipers (wrx 4/2pot) run whoever's disks they find and disk failure is very rare.

So what that tells you is, even if its not normal it can still happen out of the blue.



john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I read "Rigid is fine for near stock
> applications"
> And see that as absurd in the extreme.
> Extreme.
> >
>
Ok, do you think one rigid designs with the aluminum you use would be fine in a hmmm NASCAR car for example? NO! It would crash on turn 2 if they were trying to hit the same brake zones. So saying near stock is not absurd. Its realistic. Because I hope you dont think that ANY of our cars arent near stock when it comes to inline G.

But anyways, I dont want to get into an tit for tat argument with you John, I know you're passionate about your stuff and like to write a lot so if I keep it up this will drag deep. And I know it ticked you off. So I'm outta here. Hope you're not pissed at me. I think you do a great thing by helping guys go rally for less.

Grant, $3000 for that brake setup IS a steal. Yes using a fancy race caliper it can get expenssive. A forged monoblock 4 pad caliper runs about 3500 each. But you can get GOOD floating assemblies for less than 400, and I know some excellent forged monoblock aluminum MMC 4 pot calipers for $495 retail.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2009 10:53PM by Cosworth.

Cosworth, don't leave. Just ignore John when he's being extremist. It works for me.

Watch, I'll ignore his attempts at making me feel E-small.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cosworth, don't leave. Just ignore John when he's
> being extremist. It works for me.
>
> Watch, I'll ignore his attempts at making me feel
> E-small.
>


Timmy-boy, Pauls talk is EXTREMIST. Are you really so dim you can't even recognize that?
He's talking ultimate set up stuff that virtually nobody who pays for stuff themselves can afford, and virtually nobody in the US needs.

Generally I try to ignore your blather but when you can't even distinguish between extreme ideal cost-is-no-object talk and what is useful and applicable to the vast majority of people, stuff which was used with great success at the highest levels of the sport just a few short years ago and you have to absurdity to suggest ignoring me, then I gotta say what a fool.



> Feisty Peacock?
>
> My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Cosworth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John your post is true about the late 90's and the
> WRC stuff. But why get all butt hurt over it? I
> wasnt knocking your product. I even said it was
> cool that you could make that shit. For fuck sakes
> I even bought your stuff before, I was just
> commenting on it and it developed from there into
> the benefits of rigid vs floating. But if you want
> to dwell into brake tech that is rigidly mounted,
> then look at the type of AL that they used on
> those setups. And its definetely not powder metal
> or billet hardware. Plus they used to break a lot
> of tabs on the disks back then. And they were
> always swaping out parts at service just for
> reliability's sake. On the other hand guys here
> want it to last full seasons Like me.
>
> Yes MJ was running OE 2006 WRX disks. It was a
> case with no rhym nor reason. I talked to our
> office in the UK since they deal with Prodrive on
> a daily basis and have more data. And even they
> said WTF... most of the guys use the homologated
> AP but those that still use the Sumitomo calipers
> (wrx 4/2pot) run whoever's disks they find and
> disk failure is very rare.
>
> So what that tells you is, even if its not normal
> it can still happen out of the blue.
>
>
>
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > I read "Rigid is fine for near stock
> > applications"
> > And see that as absurd in the extreme.
> > Extreme.
> > >
> >
> Ok, do you think one rigid designs with the
> aluminum you use would be fine in a hmmm NASCAR
> car for example? NO! It would crash on turn 2 if
> they were trying to hit the same brake zones. So
> saying near stock is not absurd. Its realistic.
> Because I hope you dont think that ANY of our cars
> arent near stock when it comes to inline G.
>
> But anyways, I dont want to get into an tit for
> tat argument with you John, I know you're
> passionate about your stuff and like to write a
> lot so if I keep it up this will drag deep. And I
> know it ticked you off. So I'm outta here. Hope
> you're not pissed at me. I think you do a great
> thing by helping guys go rally for less.
>
> Grant, $3000 for that brake setup IS a steal. Yes
> using a fancy race caliper it can get expenssive.
> A forged monoblock 4 pad caliper runs about 3500
> each. But you can get GOOD floating assemblies for
> less than 400, and I know some excellent forged
> monoblock aluminum MMC 4 pot calipers for $495
> retail.

Paul, chatting about the most extreme stuff is cool and all, and for the folks that don't know what floating vs rigid is, for them it must certainly be enlightening but in the context of who is here, the speeds they drive, the budgets that most can't afford even stock stuff being changed out frequently enough, it seems kinda pointless to talk about stuff that costs 10 times what for one hat than most spend for 4 discs.

I'm not pissed at you Paul, we are talking about PARTS after all, right. Hell you know well enough how crazy Latinos get when talking about stuff!

It's just Vittorio is looking for something to upgrade his brakes and saying just "for near stock applications" is an extreme exaggeration. The discs, the heart of the system are bigger and at 1 1/4" way thicker and can deal with huge amounts more heat in themselves. The calipers, sure those are the most affordable but they are much larger, have a much bigger pad and FOR US in the USA, work fine.

Point is we aren't comparing STOCK to the baddest WRC or NASCAR short track set up, we should be looking at stock flexy sliding pin stuff and thin all iron shit to this and its way more brake than most will need. And when a rock smacks a caliper or the grind thru on the back side, guys can afford to replace them.
If some undiscovered mega fast talent buys something like these and finds the flex just toooooooo much in the calipers (presuming production wheelbearing internal slop somehow escapes their notice), they can up the ante and get something stiffer.

Again, Vittorio's looking for information about stuff HE CAN AFFORD, not discussion on what the best stuff in the whole world is.


>
>
>
>
> Edited 2 times. Last edit at Jul 3, 2009 by
> Cosworth.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.