Specs on Focus rotors

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cosworth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > John your post is true about the late 90's
> and the
> > WRC stuff. But why get all butt hurt over it?
> I
> > wasnt knocking your product. I even said it
> was
> > cool that you could make that shit. For fuck
> sakes
> > I even bought your stuff before, I was just
> > commenting on it and it developed from there
> into
> > the benefits of rigid vs floating. But if you
> want
> > to dwell into brake tech that is rigidly
> mounted,
> > then look at the type of AL that they used
> on
> > those setups. And its definetely not powder
> metal
> > or billet hardware. Plus they used to break a
> lot
> > of tabs on the disks back then. And they
> were
> > always swaping out parts at service just for
> > reliability's sake. On the other hand guys
> here
> > want it to last full seasons Like me.
> >
> > Yes MJ was running OE 2006 WRX disks. It was
> a
> > case with no rhym nor reason. I talked to
> our
> > office in the UK since they deal with
> Prodrive on
> > a daily basis and have more data. And even
> they
> > said WTF... most of the guys use the
> homologated
> > AP but those that still use the Sumitomo
> calipers
> > (wrx 4/2pot) run whoever's disks they find
> and
> > disk failure is very rare.
> >
> > So what that tells you is, even if its not
> normal
> > it can still happen out of the blue.
> >
> >
> >
> > john vanlandingham Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > I read "Rigid is fine for near stock
> > > applications"
> > > And see that as absurd in the extreme.
> > > Extreme.
> > > >
> > >
> > Ok, do you think one rigid designs with the
> > aluminum you use would be fine in a hmmm
> NASCAR
> > car for example? NO! It would crash on turn 2
> if
> > they were trying to hit the same brake zones.
> So
> > saying near stock is not absurd. Its
> realistic.
> > Because I hope you dont think that ANY of our
> cars
> > arent near stock when it comes to inline G.
> >
> > But anyways, I dont want to get into an tit
> for
> > tat argument with you John, I know you're
> > passionate about your stuff and like to write
> a
> > lot so if I keep it up this will drag deep.
> And I
> > know it ticked you off. So I'm outta here.
> Hope
> > you're not pissed at me. I think you do a
> great
> > thing by helping guys go rally for less.
> >
> > Grant, $3000 for that brake setup IS a steal.
> Yes
> > using a fancy race caliper it can get
> expenssive.
> > A forged monoblock 4 pad caliper runs about
> 3500
> > each. But you can get GOOD floating
> assemblies for
> > less than 400, and I know some excellent
> forged
> > monoblock aluminum MMC 4 pot calipers for
> $495
> > retail.
>
> Paul, chatting about the most extreme stuff is
> cool and all, and for the folks that don't know
> what floating vs rigid is, for them it must
> certainly be enlightening but in the context of
> who is here, the speeds they drive, the budgets
> that most can't afford even stock stuff being
> changed out frequently enough, it seems kinda
> pointless to talk about stuff that costs 10 times
> what for one hat than most spend for 4 discs.
>
> I'm not pissed at you Paul, we are talking about
> PARTS after all, right. Hell you know well enough
> how crazy Latinos get when talking about stuff!
>
> It's just Vittorio is looking for something to
> upgrade his brakes and saying just "for near stock
> applications" is an extreme exaggeration. The
> discs, the heart of the system are bigger and at 1
> 1/4" way thicker and can deal with huge amounts
> more heat in themselves. The calipers, sure those
> are the most affordable but they are much larger,
> have a much bigger pad and FOR US in the USA, work
> fine.
>
> Point is we aren't comparing STOCK to the baddest
> WRC or NASCAR short track set up, we should be
> looking at stock flexy sliding pin stuff and thin
> all iron shit to this and its way more brake than
> most will need. And when a rock smacks a caliper
> or the grind thru on the back side, guys can
> afford to replace them.
> If some undiscovered mega fast talent buys
> something like these and finds the flex just
> toooooooo much in the calipers (presuming
> production wheelbearing internal slop somehow
> escapes their notice), they can up the ante and
> get something stiffer.
>
> Again, Vittorio's looking for information about
> stuff HE CAN AFFORD, not discussion on what the
> best stuff in the whole world is.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Edited 2 times. Last edit at Jul 3, 2009 by
> > Cosworth.
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

Well thats the thing with the internets. It can go in a whole different direction real quick. I wasnt advocating people here to use the cream of the crop. I just commented on the rigid vs float. And since you can make that stuff I even offered you Citroen WRC disks that you could adapt.

Now making your design into a floating system is not that much more costly than keeping it rigid. Bobbins are very cheap so about 100 bux some could have the option of disks floating on yout hats.

Anyways, happy 4th guys.

Cosworth Wrote:
-
> The problem with the wilwoods is that they were
> originally for dirt track late models and that
> type of racing. Light cars on lose surfaces and no
> money racers.

And this is somehow different because....

> They're cheap cheap cheap aluminium, not forged, 2
> piece, boxy not very stiff design, shitty seals,
> and pistons that gall the bores when the caliper
> flexes. And boy does it flex. Tons of pad taper on
> the leading edge and at the periphery.

I thought pad taper was just due to getting the piston bore sizes wrong, IE not using differential bores or using the wrong ones.

And how does caliper flex cause pad taper at the periphery? I am genuinely curious, as I cannot picture what difference the caliper design would make.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cosworth Wrote:
> -
> > The problem with the wilwoods is that they
> were
> > originally for dirt track late models and
> that
> > type of racing. Light cars on lose surfaces
> and no
> > money racers.
>
> And this is somehow different because....

Physics - it takes more energy to slow down a 3000# rally car than those midgets.


> I thought pad taper was just due to getting the
> piston bore sizes wrong, IE not using differential
> bores or using the wrong ones.

In theory yes, that is a way to combat taper. But you need to look at the release characteristics of the caliper. The abutments and piston seal retraction. If the pad doesnt release very well due to the abutment design then the leading edge of the pad will always be slightly hotter than the trailing. Even without being on the brakes. Normally the hotter the compound is the quicker it wears. Hence pad taper on an differential bored caliper.

>
> And how does caliper flex cause pad taper at the
> periphery? I am genuinely curious, as I cannot
> picture what difference the caliper design would
> make.

Just imagine a taco. If you put pressure inside of it then its going to start opening up from the bottom on up right. Well there's your pad taper as the pressure builds against the caliper, it slightly opens up and keeping the pressure only on the top part of the pad. It will give you a false sense of higher initial bite because it raises the effective radius of the contact patch but that quickly fades as that upper part overheats. It will also destroy the disks due to the large "cool band" it leaves on the lower part of the swept area.

Cosworth Wrote:

>
> Yes MJ was running OE 2006 WRX disks. It was a
> case with no rhym nor reason. I talked to our
> office in the UK since they deal with Prodrive on
> a daily basis and have more data. And even they
> said WTF... most of the guys use the homologated
> AP but those that still use the Sumitomo calipers
> (wrx 4/2pot) run whoever's disks they find and
> disk failure is very rare.
>
> So what that tells you is, even if its not normal
> it can still happen out of the blue.


Is he still running the Sumitomo/Subaru 4 pot/2pot set-up or moved to something bigger and better?

I'm about to be using the 4pot/2pot set-up very soon since a swap to a 6 spd requires the different hubs.

---

Chris

Now back to the original post. I will try and take some measurements on the spare rotors that I have at home. The one difference I have noticed between the Audi 4X108 stuff and the Focus is the hub diameter. The focus has a much larger hub diameter. So there would be a gap between the hub and the disk, so you would likely need some rings to get the rotor properly centered on the hub.

Andrew

Well now I'm confused.

Paulinho- "They're cheap cheap cheap aluminium, not forged,"

Wilwood- "The process of stess-flow forging re-aligns the internal grain structure of the metal to flow within the contour of the caliper body. This produces a part with superior strength over machined block billet parts or castings. The FEA generated body design features a radial transition between the piston bores and caliper bridges. This eliminates macined steps and shoulders in this critical strength area and substantially increases the resistance against deflection and body separation under high load. Structural deflection and volume displacement testing have proven the efficiency of this innovative design."


I'm smart enough to not believe everything that's relayed to me in a catalog, but the DynaPro calipers are at least forged, though the important question is "forged from what material?"


Paulinho- "2 piece, boxy not very stiff design, shitty seals, and pistons that gall the bores when the caliper flexes. And boy does it flex. Tons of pad taper on the leading edge and at the periphery."

I have had my issues with these, mostly due to rotor choice, but I haven't experienced any problems with pad taper, seals or with pistons galling bores. They are a 2 piece design, but I like the fact there are no external crossover tubes to get crushed by rally rocks. Can't very well do that with a monoblock to my knowledge.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm smart enough to not believe everything that's
> relayed to me in a catalog, but the DynaPro
> calipers are at least forged, though the important
> question is "forged from what material?"

Exactly - I'm not up to par on their "trade secrets" but what's done is they just heat treat them vs forged unit that gets machined afterwards.

> I have had my issues with these, mostly due to
> rotor choice, but I haven't experienced any
> problems with pad taper, seals or with pistons
> galling bores. They are a 2 piece design, but I
> like the fact there are no external crossover
> tubes to get crushed by rally rocks. Can't very
> well do that with a monoblock to my knowledge.

No doubt that in your experience you havent come across other issues. But in the several thousands out there in the short track world, they do have those issues. I'm sure the seals never leaked on yours either, and leakd the fluid past the pistons and onto the hot disks causing nice blue flames. Or else you would've done the same as the others that did and bought something else.

As for the internal cross overs you can do it in a monoblock just fine, dont know what you mean by cant very well do it, but there are other designs that use a bridge pipe protector and works fine just as well.


Do It Sidewayz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is he still running the Sumitomo/Subaru 4 pot/2pot
> set-up or moved to something bigger and better?
>
> I'm about to be using the 4pot/2pot set-up very
> soon since a swap to a 6 spd requires the
> different hubs.
>
> Chris
Yes he's using that setup.

Talk to Dan or Frank Sprongl at Four Star, they have the right stuff for that 4pot/2pot setup.

Cosworth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I know some excellent forged
> monoblock aluminum MMC 4 pot calipers for $495
> retail.

Well give it up...who's making MMC calipers for that price? Any chance you know what the alloy is. I still have not so fond memories of a Boralyn fiasco in the early '90's.

Just for reference the Wilwood Radial Dyna Pro that Eric is referencing is 100% machined. They may start with a forging but it might as well be billet because they hit every surface with a cutter. In my experience they are picking up a very minor strength increase from forging. Wholesale price of ~$195 each:

I think the forging is done to bang the caliper close to shape to allow for less machining than if they made 'em out of billet blocks.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Cosworth Wrote:
> Exactly - I'm not up to par on their "trade
> secrets" but what's done is they just heat treat
> them vs forged unit that gets machined
> afterwards.

Perhaps some, but not these. You know they have made a lot of different calipers over the years, right?


>
> No doubt that in your experience you havent come
> across other issues. But in the several thousands
> out there in the short track world, they do have
> those issues. I'm sure the seals never leaked on
> yours either, and leakd the fluid past the pistons
> and onto the hot disks causing nice blue flames.
> Or else you would've done the same as the others
> that did and bought something else.

With DynaPros? Really?

> As for the internal cross overs you can do it in a
> monoblock just fine, dont know what you mean by
> cant very well do it, but there are other designs
> that use a bridge pipe protector and works fine
> just as well.

Yeah, I've seen the protectors. And I've seen crushed pipes.

I was just relaying my admittedly limited knowledge of machining and manufacturing processes from growing up in a machine shop. Seems to me you'd have to plunge or drill through the monoblock from one side and use a plug to close the side you plunged from to internally bridge it. I'm sure I could be wrong.

Tim wrote:
>Wholesale price of ~$195 each:

Which means at least one spare (can be used either R or L) in the truck.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Cosworth Wrote:
> Wilwood calipers and x-trac in the same
> car for some reason just doesnt add up.

I'm sure you'd be very dissappointed to find that I sourced my bearings and seals for said Xtrac from Applied and had them locally EDM'd and made my own bushings and had Liberty's gears repair my dogs instead of buying new Xtrac gears, too. Less fancy green boxes around my shop from England.

And (gasp) I use Protrac shocks, too. I know...if they're not RS-Shlins they ain't worth bolting on. Silly me.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a set of Alcons, but my contract was for just so much and I do what I must. Sometimes that means finding solutions that WRCnobs would look down their noses at. I'm okay with that.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps some, but not these. You know they have
> made a lot of different calipers over the years,
> right?

You trying to be funny?

> > No doubt that in your experience you havent
> come
> > across other issues. But in the several
> thousands
> > out there in the short track world, they do
> have
> > those issues. I'm sure the seals never leaked
> on
> > yours either, and leakd the fluid past the
> pistons
> > and onto the hot disks causing nice blue
> flames.
> > Or else you would've done the same as the
> others
> > that did and bought something else.
>
> With DynaPros? Really?

All of them man. Just go to an ASA race in your area and ask those guys what're the common issues with they have with wilwoods. OR look at them flexing when someone is pumping the pedal. Its insane.

> > As for the internal cross overs you can do it
> in a
> > monoblock just fine, dont know what you mean
> by
> > cant very well do it, but there are other
> designs
> > that use a bridge pipe protector and works
> fine
> > just as well.
>
> Yeah, I've seen the protectors. And I've seen
> crushed pipes.
> I was just relaying my admittedly limited
> knowledge of machining and manufacturing processes
> from growing up in a machine shop. Seems to me
> you'd have to plunge or drill through the
> monoblock from one side and use a plug to close
> the side you plunged from to internally bridge it.
> I'm sure I could be wrong.
Hmmm dont know what the sarcasm is for but thats one way to do it if you want to go about with machining it. You can always do it in the mold. But thats besides the point. If you like them and they seem to be more than enough for what you do, then great.

I'm done with this, cause this being the net and in this day and age, wilwood will find out and try and sue me for defamation or something silly like that.






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2009 11:05AM by Cosworth.

Seems to
> me
> > you'd have to plunge or drill through the
> > monoblock from one side and use a plug to
> close
> > the side you plunged from to internally
> bridge it.
> > I'm sure I could be wrong.

Cosworth Wrote:
> Hmmm dont know what the sarcasm is for but thats
> one way to do it if you want to go about with
> machining it. You can always do it in the mold.


You can do that with forgings? I know you can have cores with castings, but didn't know you could do it with forgings. (not being sarcastic...I really don't know...but have never seen cored forgings to my knowledge.)

I thought that was your whole argument for why the expensive stuff was better...not cast, but "billet" or forgings. "Billet" ain't cored and to my admittedly limited knowledge (again, not sarcastic), forgings aren't either.

Always willing to learn.

Edit...I looked it up, yup, you can have cores in forging, but I still don't see how you could have a solid enough core to withstand the compression and hold open a crossover passage without an ejection route for the core. Anyone know?

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2009 12:42PM by Lurch.

Come on this is all over da place now and some may be interesting for those not knowing anything but I think it has to be said; Paul is now working in Charlotte, that almost certainly means he's working in NASCAR.

that means the stuff he's seeing and talking about related to NASCAR things which [/b][/u]weigh a minimum of 3400 LBS (or 700 to 900 lbs heavier than what we're are talking about) and which reach who knows what for speeds but certainly well over double or even triple the average SS speed.

BOTH those factors, weight and speed, are quite geometric increases as far as I know in terms of energy requirements to bring it up to speed or slow it down at a given rate, much less do that repeatedly like a short track car---whatever passes for short track anymore.

So whatever Paul says about the needs from his current perspective make sense.

It's just so far extremely beyond what anybody doing gravel Norte Americano events need that it makes it inapplicable.


Hey Vittorio, the whole fawkin point is "You wanna borrow a bell and disc to see it you can mock up sumpin?"

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Not applicable does not equal not interesting.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.