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EP3??

Posted by urr 
urr
Andrew Sutherland
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urr
EP3??
May 13, 2010 05:09PM
Anyone thought about building an EP3 Honda Civic? They seem to be pretty popular rally cars in the rest of the world. On paper, it looks pretty good. I think 250/200 hp/tq @ 2500lbs with a proper final drive would be pretty fun.

Shell – Readily available and Custom Cages has an FIA approved cage available.

Motor – More options than a Vegas buffet. The k24/k20 hybrid seems cheap and easy

Tranny – Lots of options: close ration gear sets, bog box or sequential. Good final drives!

Suspension – Sellholm is making a club level damper set for about $2k USD (for an EK)..or you can get crazy with Profex, Reiger etc..

Brakes – Brembo has an off the shelf gravel brake set-up


Lots of good info here:

http://www.eg6ek4ep3.com/

http://www.jasmotorsport.com/


Any thoughts, questions or comments? Flame away….

Andrew
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urr
Andrew Sutherland
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Location: Studio City CA / Camas WA
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Subaru, EVO, Honda, Husky



urr
Re: EP3??
May 13, 2010 05:29PM
Doh! i did a search and read through the thread last year about civics. Lots of overlap!
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Merkur



Re: EP3??
May 13, 2010 05:37PM
You should build one then race it a few times and then sell it. smiling smiley



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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urr
Andrew Sutherland
Senior Moderator
Location: Studio City CA / Camas WA
Join Date: 02/22/2008
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Posts: 275

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Subaru, EVO, Honda, Husky



urr
Re: EP3??
May 13, 2010 06:47PM
NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You should build one then race it a few times and
> then sell it.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

That's my "MO".

I'm thinking about building 2 or 3; economies of scale! I already bought one shell, picking up another in Vegas this weekend. I need to stop surfing craigslist!!

Andrew
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turoc
Ozgur Simsek
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Re: EP3??
May 13, 2010 07:39PM
I intended to but the initial cost was high. In grN trim they are 230hp, have the 6.33 homologated and 200lbs torque. Paulinho had the 6.33 in his rsx and gotta say it was quick!




rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!
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gkd
George Doganis
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gkd
Re: EP3??
May 13, 2010 11:25PM
The EP3 will be very competitive. I like the K24 hybrid motor idea or a K24A out of a TSX. Compared with an earlier Civic(EK, EF, EG) the only minor things against the EP3 are that it uses struts on the front so rally suspension will not be as cheap as the earlier cars,the rear suspension has very little room for a spring and overall weight.

I am sure that you will build a great car so I am curious to see how fast it will be.

George



Civic Rally Car
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: EP3??
May 14, 2010 12:19AM
gkd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The EP3 will be very competitive. I like the K24
> hybrid motor idea or a K24A out of a TSX. Compared
> with an earlier Civic(EK, EF, EG) the only minor
> things against the EP3 are that it uses struts on
> the front so rally suspension will not be as cheap
> as the earlier cars,

But he can get much STRONGER suspension which will LAST longer and work better---if he calls the right place....





the rear suspension has very
> little room for a spring

Easily solved for more travel...easy...


There is ZERO advantage to the wacky, weak double "wish it stays togeter" bone front stuff.
In fact the front suspension on those cars is the ONLY reason I've never reccomended the Hondas, so when that major blunder is SOLVED I say "You have to be crazy to NOT build a Honda---if you feel compelled to build a fwd screamer, rather than a simpler, cheaper, probably much more fun 2300 turbo rwd car...




and overall weight.
>
> I am sure that you will build a great car so I am
> curious to see how fast it will be.
>
> George
>
> Civic Rally Car






John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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BillyElliot
Billy Elliot Mann
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Location: Royal Oak, MI
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1996 Honda Civic with VTEC YO!


Re: EP3??
May 14, 2010 09:00AM
I was going to build one, but I am doing an EK build for now. I don't have easy access to auctions so I can't really get a "fix-er-up-er" for cheap. I've seen getting some salvage title ones for 2-3k. You'd find a high mileage one for 6-7k if you look hard enough. I got my EK w/ a B16 for $3500 and I still need to sell the integra leather seats, S2000 wheel, interior bits from the car.

Once I sell my STI, I plan to buy an EP daily driver which will then get turned into a rally car eventually. Unless I want to go to open light by then. Either way, it's a nice car. Not sure the fighting weight they get down to. Stock they're close to 2700 compared to low 2200 for an EG/EK.

Plenty of "upgrade" paths to go. Can run the stock K20 and 5-spd, throw in a K20 6-spd trans for an out of the box close ratio set. Do the RSX-S K20 and bolt ons and have well over 200WHP easy, make a K24 and you can push 300hp and close to 200 ft-lb torque.
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Cosworth
Paulinho Ferreira
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Re: EP3??
May 14, 2010 12:33PM
For those cars there are better things you should do than build the motor. All you really need in the gearbox is add an LSD a 6.33 or 5.84 final drive and its good to go. Spend the rest of the money on good dampers and way to make the suspension not get all crazy out back. No wheel travel and because of the geometry it gets massive toe changes with wheel travel also the rear motion ratio is wack, so you need to run super stiff springs, my 300lbs rears werent enough. Real shitty suspension really. The front is OKAY, but the steering mount up high on the strut makes having a spring longer than 8" impossible.

There are Group N parts available to make all those things work good, but they come at Group A cost!

As for the rest of the car, its not bad, just too heavy for what it is. My RSX could not get below 2700 rally ready.

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gkd
George Doganis
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gkd
Re: EP3??
May 14, 2010 03:38PM
John,

I have not come across any info that the Honda front double wishbone suspension is a serious problem on the 96-00 Civics. I have searched and spoken to people who have rallied them and I have now completed two desert-style rallies(very rough in spots) and have not found any inherent weakness with the stock pieces on the front end. I did try an aftermarket upper control arm but it did not fit right so I went back to the stock piece with minor reinforcement. This style of suspension offers the a very good camber curve.

Hard to beat cost/performance for 96-00 Civic shocks as Bilstein 50mm monotube shocks are about $120 per corner plus re-valving. Longevity is as good as any other Bilstein.

George







Civic Rally Car
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Saab 96 V4



Re: EP3??
May 14, 2010 08:44PM
gkd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John,
>
> I have not come across any info that the Honda
> front double wishbone suspension is a serious
> problem on the 96-00 Civics. I have searched and
> spoken to people who have rallied them and I have
> now completed two desert-style rallies(very rough
> in spots) and have not found any inherent weakness
> with the stock pieces on the front end. I did try
> an aftermarket upper control arm but it did not
> fit right so I went back to the stock piece with
> minor reinforcement. This style of suspension
> offers the a very good camber curve.
>
> Hard to beat cost/performance for 96-00 Civic
> shocks as Bilstein 50mm monotube shocks are about
> $120 per corner plus re-valving. Longevity is as
> good as any other Bilstein.
>
> George

I guess its all what you're used to.
To me all those things look spindlier than shit, and the amount of bent and broken ones I see in the "Future Spare Parts Storage Depots" aka junk yards gives me the willies, and comfirms well enough for me..
The Honja knuckles are cast iron and I'm spoiled by the nice forged steel units on my Saabs and Fords and Volvos..
Forged steel is what all the cool kids are using...it MAY bend or twist, but it doesn't BREAK as I've seen countless Honda knuckles do.

Also until I see photos of a ruler placed next to a damper MOUNTED UP at full extension and full compression, I ain't buying the "calculations and the IF......then it ahs to be at least...."extrpolations.
Ruler next to installed stuff full droop to full smoosh...

And while the only car I ever rallied has double A arms, OBVIOUSLY it is unimportant the camber curve in even the highest levels in the world---travel and strength of components.
Hacve you seen the camber changes on any post say 2000 "world rally Car', they DRASTIC and yet they do just fine...
And somehow, they all use struts.


>
>
>
>
>
> Civic Rally Car






John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Cosworth
Paulinho Ferreira
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Re: EP3??
May 15, 2010 03:45PM
John the first thing to "give away" on those suspensions is not the upright, its the upper and lower ball joints.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: EP3??
May 15, 2010 07:54PM
Cosworth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John the first thing to "give away" on those
> suspensions is not the upright, its the upper and
> lower ball joints.


Sure, they're the size of my pinkie in diameter.

But I have seen many broken in the swan neck part---who knows, maybe after the balljoint braks and they slam into a curn then the neck breaks, but they break..


As for LONGER versions of your stuff, it could be done---I made arms for the Audi (3 pieces of 3/16 to allow a thinkness I could work, then welded up...)but I used the idea of swoooping up from your samples which arrive same time as the Audi samples...

All we'd have to do is swooop up more...

Of course then theres the proble m of drive axles streesing CVs if we had longer units for longer travel...

SEE?
its that sort of thing which pushes me, a life fwd rally guy, towards modding RWD cars, its so much easier to do these mods.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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urr
Andrew Sutherland
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urr
Re: EP3??
May 16, 2010 01:06PM
I got the first shell into the shop last night and up in the air. Started stripping out some of the interior crap etc.

A couple comments:

I like the floor pan on this thing! It's completely flat, which should make sorting out the seats and other interior bits easy.

Rear shocks are super short (as mentioned above). It looks like you could throw some rear turrets in there to get a longer shock but I wonder how long you can go before the wheel arch is the limiting factor. Not sure I want to "tub" the rear end.

Steering is funky. The rack mounted high up on the firewall, which requires a large opening in each fender well. I can picture debri and mud coming through there. Maybe a custom neoprean boot could seal it off.
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Cosworth
Paulinho Ferreira
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Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: 03/15/2007
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 721

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Honda Civic



Re: EP3??
May 16, 2010 09:58PM
urr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got the first shell into the shop last night and
> up in the air. Started stripping out some of the
> interior crap etc.
>
> A couple comments:
>
> I like the floor pan on this thing! It's
> completely flat, which should make sorting out the
> seats and other interior bits easy.
>
> Rear shocks are super short (as mentioned above).
> It looks like you could throw some rear turrets in
> there to get a longer shock but I wonder how long
> you can go before the wheel arch is the limiting
> factor. Not sure I want to "tub" the rear end.
>
> Steering is funky. The rack mounted high up on
> the firewall, which requires a large opening in
> each fender well. I can picture debri and mud
> coming through there. Maybe a custom neoprean
> boot could seal it off.

My experience is from the DC5 chassis which is the same crap as the EP3 but just with a nicer looking body.

The steering opening wont let any more mud than what it comes in through the sides of the skid plate.

On the rear suspension getting more travel wont be a good idea because the amount of toe change with travel is only going to make the car act radically.

You also need to reinforce the attachment points of the lower control arms. Those holes start to ovalize and it will make it a nice rear steer machine.

Also, add stiff motor mounts or the on/off throtle will make the intake eventually contact the radiator expansion tank and you'll start getting coolant on the windshield on stage.

Also the front and rear bumper attachments suck cock, it will snap off every stage until you sort out new side fastners.
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