JVAB for RS 2.5

I have a pic of the bent ear, but you have it in your shop.

I can put my car on jack stands, and use the jack to move the spindle through its motion. not sure exactly what would be helpful. ...

I could take the spring off the stock one, and the super bitching one. and using the jack push it through a full range of motion.. maybe we can spot some different between stock and super bitchin?

maybe i'll just call after work to see what's gonna be the most helpful

I ran the last bit of stage 5 with the damper broken (bent internally i think) and then 3 more stages like that. While i tried not to jump the car at all after the damage the first few water bars after the damage I'm sure i went over too fast.

Starting stage 6 i knew the strut was stuck, but wasn't sure exactly what the problem was. i was thinking the strut or ear bent a little and the wheel was physically struck on the spring (not sure why i thought that) tried a pry bar n stuff , nothing worked, then i just drove a few more stages and fixed it during service..

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A1337STI
I ran the last bit of stage 5 with the damper broken (bent internally i think) and then 3 more stages like that. While i tried not to jump the car at all after the damage the first few water bars after the damage I'm sure i went over too fast.

Starting stage 6 i knew the strut was stuck, but wasn't sure exactly what the problem was. i was thinking the strut or ear bent a little and the wheel was physically struck on the spring (not sure why i thought that) tried a pry bar n stuff , nothing worked, then i just drove a few more stages and fixed it during service..

Alex that insert is bent at least 8mm. It was mildly put a laugh a minute for the full 40 minutes to get that thing apart..... The tube is straight and true though.....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Yikes, coil bind much?

how on earth did you get it out? (big reverse press thingy?) Well that explains that. hopefully something can get put back together for Prescott.

Am i stupid to assume its fine to re-use the spring?

the spring perch and locking collar also seem fine. they went down and up so i was figuring the tube didn't oval.

call me up after work, or i'll call you. figure out how much for new bits , and a plan for a couple of spares the car was handling so fricken awesome before that happened. oh wells humpty dumpty will be put back together again. hehehe

mmmm, I love how wrecked rally car parts get!

Gorman is one of those events where you can stay entirely on the road (well over it) , never hit anything, but still break your car.

(btw in mid process of buying that photo, hence the proof marks and stuff)

I don't think i was asking "too much" from the suspension but i know i was asking a lot. I possibly need to look into those spherical bearings that JVAB is talking about ... i'm not exactly sure of where the bearings need to be installed. (junction of track arm and spindle ?)

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A1337STI
Gorman is one of those events where you can stay entirely on the road (well over it) , never hit anything, but still break your car.

(btw in mid process of buying that photo, hence the proof marks and stuff)

I don't think i was asking "too much" from the suspension but i know i was asking a lot. I possibly need to look into those spherical bearings that JVAB is talking about ... i'm not exactly sure of where the bearings need to be installed. (junction of track arm and spindle ?)

IN the rear top mount. Make sense? If the knuckle/hub--the bottom of the strut is swinging up and FORWARD----that movement maybe can be accomodated in the top mount.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I wish the pic I had was a little further out, and I was in the car undoing the top mount when the wheel came off.

I'm thinking that the trailing link would pull it forward when you hit full compression, but it would probably do it more at full droop. I need to check @ what point that arm is flat during the GC/GD travel. Granted, at full droop you're not slamming a 2700lb car down on it..

Also.. We checked the lower strut mounting bolts at the last service and they were still around 140 ft/lbs. I think that was one stage before this happened. That car has been loosening up those bolts though and allowing things to move around a bit on the lower mount.

Ya that makes sense. but causes further confusion with me, If i only bolt in the top of the coil over, i can pivot the bottom in any direction. I'm not sure if that movement is currently happening due to the top mount being made of rubber, or the type of bearing. I **think** the bearing just let's the coil over spin, and the rubber allows the coil over to pivot (using the top at the pivot point)

But honestly I'm guessing ..

I'll check on the one that's in the car, i think i may have lowered the rear about a 1/8" of an inch past full spring extension. (was trying to lower the rear to get closer to stock ride height) Maybe that's what caused my problems?

I have to confirm that though.. i know i was toying with rear ride height, I had set the fronts so at full droop the springs were just barely snug, then i raised them up about a 1/4" inch. I started with the rears snug at full droop and i think my car had some Rake in it so i wanted to level it out to be closer to stock ...

if that's the problem (or bad to do) lmk i need to learn from this. I do know for sure it would be impossible for the spring to bind on the collar, BUT on my previous lower ears the spring did in fact bind on the collar on a dirt drive I went with some jeepers... I'm sorta wondering if I caused a tiny bend during that drive
and it took 3 rallies before it became a problem ... hmmm

why are we looking at the trailing arm/lat links/subaru suspension geometry? I doubt that's the culprit.

The reason for the direction of the bent ears? yes. WHY the ears bent? probably not.

I was going just as fast, if not faster, than you in a heavier car and didn't have any issues.

just gusset the ears and increase the dampening/valving a little bit, and/or increase bump stop. (I showed you my gussets on the DMS, I'll try and take a pic for everyone to see what I"m talking about, although the ears on the RS&SPs are a pretty good example as well).

What bump stops are you using, Alex? I replaced the crappy, spongy DMS bump stops a while ago and I noticed a significant difference on big hits. I did this after Desert Storm last year....remember those washouts?


http://www.resuspension.com/Bump-Stops-orderby_0-p-1-c-328.html

I'm using the 75mm ones. They come in 3 densities. click on the product and then click 'detailed image' (small link) and it even gives you a distance vs force if you want to actually calculate something.

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Jon Burke
why are we looking at the trailing arm/lat links/subaru suspension geometry? I doubt that's the culprit.

The reason for the direction of the bent ears? yes. WHY the ears bent? probably not.

See. And that is the hard part. Did the ears bend and then cause the insert to bend? Or is it something about the suspension bending the insert and then the ears are becoming the only dampening part? Are the people that are doing this running with all stock bushings of an unknown age and quality? Or does the geometry lead to bending ears which can then lead to bending inserts. There's more people that have had no issue than people who have had an issue. My guess, probability theory. We're driving rally cars. Inserts can get bent. We've got a whole bucket at the shop of bent DMS inserts that Mitch replaced for customers over the year. Sure the probability of having multiple cars have the same/similar problem in a short time frame might be small, but it's not zero. Gusset the ears, build more suspenders.

I'm with Burke & Grant on this. I have gusseted DMS with improved bump stops (not as bitchin as his) and we crack the welds on the ears after a few rallys, but were warned about this ahead of time by Zimmer, so we were ready for it. It is related to the geometry & everything else that can't be solved, so just build them stronger. My experience is on a car with similar age/quality bushings as Alex at similar speeds on the same roads.

Gusset them and and get back out there but watch your ride height and insert settings.

at the start of last season i had poly urethane suspension bushings replacing all of my old rubber ones, over time bad luck, and driving errors almost every single bushing is now gone. crashing, and bending a-arms killed most of the front ones. we had to modify some of the rear ones to fit the FWD rear suspension parts, so those are no longer used now that i'm AWD.

so yes everything except the top hat "bushings" are old rubber. I know one of my A-arm bushings is like 40% missing.

Moving the rear up and down it appears the arc is outward (Pivot point is the rear diff basically) so as it goes down it goes inward a little bit, as it goes up it goes outward (and more neg camber) I didn't get a chance to really go through range of motion with day light and what not... But i'm feeling what Grant said. I ran 3 gorman stages with my strut stuck fully compressed. the energy traveled through the wheel into the spindle and off into the strut which wouldn't move and the ears took the abuse. had the ears not bent, Likely i would have torn the top hat through like what happened to Jon.

Jon's damage was much harder to fix than mine, mine was bolt off coilover, bolt on new one... Thinking about this , I'm probably better off with ears that function fine as long as the strut moves, but tear when things are completely bound up. if the exact same thing happened again, i could bolt on a new strut at service. (Eventually I'm gonna have 6 JVAB struts muahahaha!)

I still think the biggest bummer about the whole breakage was that my car was handling just so damn dreamy, on stage 5 It felt less like driving my car, and more like making it dance, then with about a 1/2 mile to go bad times :p lol. being out a possible 3rd OA Podium in a row , some Cash, and burning JVABs time all sucks too. ... (i guess)

here are some picts of the new rears that just landed.