Fun with VW gearboxes
Posted by Tom B
Tom B Tom B Junior Moderator Location: Douche Canoe, WA Join Date: 02/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 780 Rally Car: VW Golf |
So I'm having a hard time with gearboxes.....seems like no matter what I do, the gear box is coming out of the car either during or after an event. I would like to stop pulling trannys...TRANSMISSIONS. History with 020's -ran an open diff-killed synchros -from shifting too fast? -ran a quaife diff- killed synchros, diff was goofy on gravel -drive flange fell out -bad build, put in backup trans, killed synchros -put in Kaaz diff -killed synchros, diff failed -gave up on 020 Went to 02A -went turbo at same time.... -Put in Kaaz Diff -killed a drive shaft -yay didn't have to pull trans! boo DNF!!! -blew up third gear tuning on the street -ran an open diff -hated life with a passion, this is soooo dumb if you have any power. -put in a newer third gear, slightly different ratio, and tightened up the diff -blew up third gear on stage and now have an open diff.. so now I am buying a god damn gearset and what... a spool or something? Here is the gearset I have and loved when third gear stayed with us speeds are @ 7K on my tire: 4.235-R&P 3.300-36 1.944-61 1.345-89 (fuck you gear!!!) 1.029-116 0.838-143 looking at these two gearsets: SQS Synchro drag kit: 3.944-R&P 2.900-44 1.923-67 1.438-90 1.211-106 1.048-123 AP Tuning G-force Synchro gear set: 4.235-R&P 2.670-45 1.810-66 1.320-91 1.029-117 0.838-143 Stock gear (highest factory numerical gear out there) now my biggest question is, I really enjoyed the ratios of the factory box, they were close and kept me in boost. The Gforce stuff is basically a factory box with a long usable first gear and ultra tough gears (500whp drag cars use them). The SQS is a nice upgrade from stock with short gearing, probably not as strong as the Gforce stuff though...My pricing is virtually the same on each.... what do the experienced turbo folk think? Other question...weld a diff or buy a spool or rebuild another KAAZ? The SRT4 guys use a spool, right? being able to turn the wheel relatively easily is nice though... -Tom DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA |
phlat65 Sean Medcroft Junior Moderator Location: Edmonds, Washington Join Date: 02/12/2009 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,802 Rally Car: Building a Merkur |
I say do the close ratio stuff, and turn down the boost a bit. Get a better boost controller that is programmable and make the boost come on softer, gear based boost control. Your simple system may be spiking/not controlling boost causing big spikes in torque.
Better yet, sell that VW and build something stronger..... |
Doivi Clarkinen Banned Infallible Moderator Location: the end of the universe Join Date: 02/12/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,432 Rally Car: 1980 Opel Ascona B |
Don't be afraid of a spool or welded diff on a turbo fwd car. After spending $1000 on the only LSD available at the time for my Dodge Omni turbo and blowing it up after 4 events I just welded a stock one. The car actually handled better than with the LSD (a ramp and pawl type, not a nice clutch type) and was always consistent. You better have the wheels pointed the way you want to go because when you get on the power that's the direction the car is gonna go. It's not so nice driving around town or parallel parking but on gravel it's not really any different than a properly set up clutch LSD. The upside to the spool or welded diff is there is no maintenance and it will never break if you weld it properly. With power steering it's no problem to turn, besides, you should be turning with your left foot anyway.
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Dazed_Driver Banned Senior Moderator Location: John and Skyes Magic Love liar Join Date: 08/24/2007 Posts: 2,154 |
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BobOfTheFuture Rob Elite Moderator Location: LI, NY Join Date: 09/25/2010 Age: Settling Down Posts: 629 Rally Car: None, anymore. |
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With the Kaaz LSD, have you been using friction modifier additive in the fluid? I am not sure you can/should add that in a FWD trannie (dunno how it effects synchro action, for example), but it sure makes a RWD LSD work sooo dramatically more smoothly, and gets rid of jerky diif action (and the shocks on the shafts, etc.)
Mark B. |
Jay Jay Woodward Mega Moderator Location: Snohomish, WA Join Date: 12/21/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 893 Rally Car: '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege |
I'm sure Derek will expound on this subject. I'm pretty sure he never broke the last gearbox he had. Sean wrote something, but it's gobbledegook. Looked something like "turntheboostdown" but it just makes no sense. So whatever you do, make sure it doesn't involve something that can't be understood. I've heard of turning boost up, but I can't figure out that other thing...
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Josh Wimpey Josh Wimpey Senior Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
HOw you destroying so many syncros? Whatever you do, never EVER put Redline oil in an older VW box. Not sure why but they overheat the bearings with that stuff and eat lots of transmissions... We have never destroyed them and I miss plenty of shifts and grab lower gears without the clutch mid corner when I must :-)
What kind of torque are you making? The 02J (5 speed) and 02M (6 speed & stronger) from the VR6 and TDI cars should hold your power. |
phlat65 Sean Medcroft Junior Moderator Location: Edmonds, Washington Join Date: 02/12/2009 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,802 Rally Car: Building a Merkur |
I know that is not the PC thing to say, but with all the great boost control systems out there, why not tune it to save some parts? With my car and the old Gillis type valve, on the dyno it would boost spike like crazy upon throttle re-application to the tune of something like an extra 50-75 ft lbs of torque. That is not really a bad thing, but it would come on really hard. After i went to the APEXi system, all that was solved. You can program it to do whatever you want. Come on soft, come on hard, over boost or under boost. Gear based boost control ect. All for $250. It also has 2 separate programs, so you can have your max power setting, and a low boost setting for slippery conditions, or when you need to save some parts. I used the low boost setting at Olympus when we sheared 6 half shaft bolts, and I had the axle on with 3 bolts. I am just saying, more power os good, even more power in this case seems to be a bad thing. Take some torque out of it and see if stuff lasts. |
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alkun Albert Kun Super Moderator Location: SF Ca. Join Date: 01/07/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,732 Rally Car: volvo 242 |
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Tom B Tom B Junior Moderator Location: Douche Canoe, WA Join Date: 02/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 780 Rally Car: VW Golf |
Turning the boost down ain't going to help much, we are only running around 200whp/torque. I drive like a jerk on equipment, but I'm not that big of a jerk. We were running a .64 A/R and the boost was comming on pretty early when we broke the first third gear. We swapped to a .86 A/R for the last event and that put the boost out a little bit later in the RPM range, but still broke third at the last event, on gravel!
We have a boost controller (GM solenoid controlled by megasquirt) we are going to run because we are swapping to an external Wastegate this summer due to boost creep and other silly dramas like the turbo still coming lose from the manifold after using titanium studs and nuts and safety wiring... I think swapping to a less aggressive clutch could help with breaking third, but then we would be giving up a little there, and I like using an sprung hub 5-puck. I think we were killing synchros on the 020 for a couple different reasons, the builds weren't top notch a #1 every time, and I shifted that transmission like a jerk, very quickly to loose less time. we never shifted without the clutch, but the clutch was stabbed and the shift was made VERY fast. With the Kaaz we have always used a friction modifier of some sort, whether it is Kaaz oil, fomoco stuff or the GL diff fluid. -Tom DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Mega Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
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Tom B Tom B Junior Moderator Location: Douche Canoe, WA Join Date: 02/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 780 Rally Car: VW Golf |
.64 or .86 only for the snail we are running....we were running out of steam up top with the .64 and boost was coming on at 1700-1800 rpm or so...I think the .86 was the right move, plus it solved our coolant temp problems too.
-Tom DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA |
Dazed_Driver Banned Senior Moderator Location: John and Skyes Magic Love liar Join Date: 08/24/2007 Posts: 2,154 |
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