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School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...

Posted by Mad Matt F 
Robert Culbertson
Robert Culbertson
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MK2 VW GTI



Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
March 15, 2015 01:27AM
6 is a frackin hot plug for anything but an old daily driver. I would suggest bumping to an 8.

The head definitely looks like it has some detonation marks on it.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
March 15, 2015 03:00PM
Quote
Robert Culbertson
6 is a frackin hot plug for anything but an old daily driver. I would suggest bumping to an 8.

The head definitely looks like it has some detonation marks on it.

I actually went down and checked... there's 7's in there now. I remember we switched to 7's after the head gasket blew, thinking that may have been a problem. But maybe go colder yet? worth a try for sure.

That cylinder did get a good wash when the gasket blew... and prior to that the car was running WAY rich (9:1 at full throttle), there's maybe only 30 km's and then 1/2 of Tall Pines running about 12:1 full throttle. The head gasket blew on the Friday night shakedown, then maybe one more pass once repaired, beer, sleep, rally, then boom.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
June 23, 2015 12:13AM
okay, okay... call me stupid. winking smiley But I got thinking, and working, and well I built something.

So Justy has always had oiling issues. Lots of work had been done to make it as good as possible stock, but that still led to this.



#1 big end just didn't get enough of the juicy stuff...

So after much beer... I took apart and rebuilt these.



Those are 2 Melling 55's, SBC pumps, one regular volume, one high volume. The plan was to run the high volume as a scavange pump, and the regular volume as a pressure pump... winking smiley

it went through various reiteriations... but ended up mating end to end, as seen here. I used a big piece of plate, and then a whole lot of filing and stuff to get everthing to mate up nicely.



That big bling block of machined al-O-umin-num is a pressure relief valve, made on my drill press... it uses the stock Melling 55 spring and plunger. But the spring is controlled by the bolt at the top, so I can adjust pressure. Yes that's standard copper piping. You'll get a parts $ break down at the end, but I didn't break the $100 mark! winking smiley

To spin the thing at 1/2 engine RPM, I ran it off the cam... Those are recycled crank to cam pullies and a matching belt.



I took the stock pan, and smashed it with a hammer for a while... I ended up with something like this... winking smiley



I realized I don't have a great pic of the tank... but I made a tank from some sheet metal, including making my own shrinking hammer to make the tank ends... winking smiley that's a standard gas pipe cap and bung for a fill. It currently sits in the back of the cabin, behind the passenger seat. flexible copper pipe is used for the plumbing along with standard 1/2" oil cooler hose to connect.



So I fired it up today... winking smiley

it made 45 lbs on the starter with the plugs pulled.

Then I actually fired it. It shot to 90+ Lbs for a instant, then dropped to 45. i think the shuttle in the relief valve took a second to fill. I shut it down, and turned the pressure up a tad. Idles at 55 lbs.

It's nearly new motor build... so I haven't reved it yet, need to get some other stuff done before I can break in new rings. But, um, I don't think oiling will be a problem from here forward. winking smiley No leaks from the pump assembly, I made a cork gasket for the pan, dumb, I'm getting some minor leakage there, I'll pull it and permatex it...

Parts,

2 melling 55's sourced used =$40
5' of 1/2 oil cooler line = $10 (good deal)
15' of 1/2 flexible copper tube = $20, (good deal)
some copper pipe I had ?
Some fittings from Home depot = $10?
steel I had for tank ?
gas pipe cap, and bung = $3
gilmer belt = $4
support bearing for pump shaft =$2

one dry sump system...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2015 11:40AM by Mad Matt F.
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aj_johnson
A.J. Johnson
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
June 25, 2015 12:33PM
Man that's cool, hopefully no issues with the rigors of rally but still cool as hell. Speaking of cool- No cooler?
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MRWmotorsports
Martin Walter
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
June 25, 2015 12:46PM
I can't believe your persistence, anyone else would have pushed the justy off a cliff long ago... amazing what you are able to accomplish with some re-cycled parts and some copper pipe!

-Martin.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
June 25, 2015 02:25PM
Quote
MRWmotorsports
I can't believe your persistence, anyone else sane person would have pushed the justy off a cliff long ago...
-Martin.

Martin, fixed that for you winking smiley

A.J. thanks.

We'll see how it holds up. The bracket is big and beefy, the belt is oversized for the load, and the pumps are apparently known to be bomb proof. Spur pumps rather then gear rotors, not as effcient, but robust.

Oil temp sensor in the system... but I figure 10 + feet of copper line should provide a bit of cabin heat winking smiley If we need more cooling, it will be easy to add in.

I leave for Urr-up in 20 days for a year... so it won't likely see action til next summer... too bad, I wanted to try and run Rallye Saguenay (http://www.couperallye.com/fr/manchettes/item/292-compilation-vid%C3%A9o-rallye-saguenay-2015.html) 2 weeks ago, but too busy getting ready for the move, and too broke...

Might get it out for a royal floggin' before I leave, we'll see.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
June 25, 2015 04:56PM
Quote
Mad Matt F

I leave for Urr-up in 20 days for a year... .

You dirty bastid. You hain't said a thing! Is did the thanks we get? I slave over a hot keyboard for hours nursing you along and giving you all kinds of silly ideers and you just fawk off on some You're-a-peein vaction for a year..

You can't even be troubled to tell us where, or why..

Where?
Why?
Details man, details!!
You're entering the famous Monastery of Ouninpohja?

A Pilgrimage to the shine of Stainte Jeanno in Grasse?


What does it all mean?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
June 25, 2015 08:06PM
Sponsored ride in Group F... All the training in the Justy paid off, the years of massive wins...

When I return I plan to take over North American rally.



I wish.


No, but it will be fun. Partner's sabbatical year. We'll be in Lausanne (Suisse) for the year. I'll continue stay at home dad status... winking smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2015 08:07PM by Mad Matt F.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
June 25, 2015 09:10PM
Quote
Mad Matt F
Sponsored ride in Group F... All the training in the Justy paid off, the years of massive wins...

When I return I plan to take over North American rally.



I wish.


No, but it will be fun. Partner's sabbatical year. We'll be in Lausanne (Suisse) for the year. I'll continue stay at home dad status... winking smiley

What you meant to say is: I'll be just a short little comfy drive from the Vosges, Haute Rhin, Huate Savoie, Savoie, Not far from Ardeche, Haute Alpes, Alpes Maritimes.......
In short the heart of the asphalt rally world...
Where regional rallyes have breathtaking views--sometimes 4050m views straight down


Holy shit you'll come back and be untouchable...

You know the magazines to get?



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
June 27, 2015 08:09AM
Road to the Justy's original owners' (before it was a "rally car" ) old farm (he moved to France, I bought Justy as a winter beater...)

https://goo.gl/maps/bvGvt

New farm is just around the bend...

https://goo.gl/maps/VwAMZ

One of the potential ways to get there...

https://goo.gl/maps/v0533

scenic route

https://goo.gl/maps/jSU7m

The steed will be some derivative of this...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/VW_Polo_III_front_20080717.jpg
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
July 27, 2016 06:23PM
Okay...

So much to my chagrin, I'm back in Nord'mer-ca...

I had a 30 second chance to play with Monster Justy today... As of last running situation, it made great steady oil pressure at idle, 60 lbs... controlled by my clever adjustable bypass valve, or so I thought.

I seemed to be able to adjust it, however off idle things got "weird" as RPM increased oil pressure went DOWN ???? from 60 at idle to 30 at 5000... ?????? WTF?

So I thought, "oh the suction from the pressure pump is holding the relief valve open. And maybe even sucking it dry at high revs"

So today I pulled the relief off, and set it up to dump into the valve cover. Absolutely nothing out of the relief valve, and...

SAME THING.

I get high idle oil pressure and a drop at rpm. WTF????

I've attached this mess of a pic to try and illustrate the plumbing.

I built the oil relief, but I used the components and dimensions from the stock Melling relief valve.

Caveat, I climb trees... I'm not an engineer. winking smiley ( I do have a graduate degree in some sort of tree biomechanics junk, but that accounts for nothing in this case) So I'm probably an idiot, and have missed something big.

Discuss, slap, ridicule. winking smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2016 06:28PM by Mad Matt F.
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Attachments:
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early pump explained.jpg
Pete
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
July 27, 2016 06:48PM
What size line is your feed to the pump?

I'm no hydraulicist but I'd think it should be -12 minimum, maybe -16, given that -10 works real good on the pressure side and you really REALLY don't want pressure drop on the inlet.

Also, I need to make a meme jpeg of that one image. "This is a dry sumped Justy engine in the back of an MGB-GT. Your argument is invalid"



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2016 06:49PM by Pete.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
July 27, 2016 07:09PM
Quote
Pete
What size line is your feed to the pump?

I'm no hydraulicist but I'd think it should be -12 minimum, maybe -16, given that -10 works real good on the pressure side and you really REALLY don't want pressure drop on the inlet.

Also, I need to make a meme jpeg of that one image. "This is a dry sumped Justy engine in the back of an MGB-GT. Your argument is invalid"

-12? 1/2 inch for the win mang...

Pete, I lurv ya... winking smiley

Let me correct,

"this here is a garage built, triple carb fed, high compression, over cammed, dry sumped Justy engine with 100K kms on it, in the back of a bone stock MGB-GT. If you think your idea is stupid, your argument is invalid"
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ElectroTech
Steve Wheeler
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
July 27, 2016 07:51PM
Is your tank vented? Is it below or above the pump? Seems to me you have to either be restricted on suction or not enough return flow from the top end. Or depending on the tank vent possibly just seeing the effect of closed loop and actually have plenty of oil flow. If it were hydraulic lifters you would hear that drop turn into noise pretty fast.



Power means nothing if you cannot control it!
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Pete
Pete Remner
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
July 27, 2016 08:25PM
For reference, SBC pumps in their native habitat, meaning the pressure relief dumps to the pump inlet thus reducing the amount of oil going through the pickup, used to have a 5/8" inlet pipe but this was changed to 3/4" sometime in the 90s.

I'm not saying 1/2" is your current problem but it might become one...



Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.
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