Construction Zone
Don\
Welcome! Log In Register

Advanced

School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...

Posted by Mad Matt F 
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
July 27, 2016 10:57PM
Steve, tank is vented to atmosphere. "full" oil level is above pump (no lift once primed), but the little "hoop" valve over the pump stops gravity force feeding the pump to overfill the sump while parked (worked for a year... winking smiley ) Hydraulic lifters? what is this tech you talk of? winking smiley

Pete, that was the reason for setting up the relief into the return from the tank (under suction)... essentially dumping back into the sump as per SBC pump standards...

Okay, food to chew on. More testing coming. Sub $100 dry sump FTMFW winking smiley

Cheers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2016 10:58PM by Mad Matt F.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
August 11, 2016 10:58PM


Okay...

So the long year of theorising, pontificating, reasoning, self-doubting at a distance

meh...

Bu wahh haa haa haa

Yeah baby... All's well that gets oiled well... winking smiley

I had an hour tonight to play, and thinking about the issue, was prepared to move the tank closer to reduce the suction load... with the prospect of potentially uprating the suction line, however.

I used 1/2" hard line from the reservoir to the pressure pump, but there was one bend I did in the "oil cooler hose".... well yeah, oil cooler hose is meant to work under pressure, yeah... um...

Not under suction.

That 4" - 70 degree bend was collapsing under higher suction load, probably even collapsing near idle. I changed it out to a hard line and BOOM. Pressure relief works, dumps oil, I have 44-50 lbs of idle pressure, and just a touch of the pedal gives me 70, then 70 all the way to whatever...

Couple of questions though. The pontification continues winking smiley

The oil out of the relief valve ( I dumped it into a container for a moment) was very foamy. I have never seen oil out of a pump, I imagine a bit of foaming, but how much?

Also, so now that I've created a monster... does checking the bearing wear become a routine issue? Before bearing wear was indicated by falling pressure... now I can pump oil till there's no bearing left winking smiley I'm sure I'll still hear a knock if there's a problem, but should I be pulling the pan and checking wear in the next couple of tests? Or am I just being silly... pumping a full load of oil, there should now never be a problem?

Cheers!

Giggly giggly...
Please Login or Register to post a reply
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
Elite Moderator
Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA
Join Date: 12/20/2005
Age: Ancient
Posts: 13,993

Rally Car:
Saab 96 V4



Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
August 12, 2016 12:20AM
Quote
Mad Matt F


Okay...

So the long year of theorising, pontificating, reasoning, self-doubting at a distance

meh...

Bu wahh haa haa haa

Yeah baby... All's well that gets oiled well... winking smiley

I had an hour tonight to play, and thinking about the issue, was prepared to move the tank closer to reduce the suction load... with the prospect of potentially uprating the suction line, however.

I used 1/2" hard line from the reservoir to the pressure pump, but there was one bend I did in the "oil cooler hose".... well yeah, oil cooler hose is meant to work under pressure, yeah... um...

Not under suction.

That 4" - 70 degree bend was collapsing under higher suction load, probably even collapsing near idle. I changed it out to a hard line and BOOM. Pressure relief works, dumps oil, I have 44-50 lbs of idle pressure, and just a touch of the pedal gives me 70, then 70 all the way to whatever...

Couple of questions though. The pontification continues winking smiley

The oil out of the relief valve ( I dumped it into a container for a moment) was very foamy. I have never seen oil out of a pump, I imagine a bit of foaming, but how much?

Also, so now that I've created a monster... does checking the bearing wear become a routine issue? Before bearing wear was indicated by falling pressure... now I can pump oil till there's no bearing left winking smiley I'm sure I'll still hear a knock if there's a problem, but should I be pulling the pan and checking wear in the next couple of tests? Or am I just being silly... pumping a full load of oil, there should now never be a problem?

Cheers!

Giggly giggly...

There's IS a reason why dry sump pil tanks are made the way they're made: de-aeration

OH! What's this? An Escort dry sump tank!


See the angled entrance of that hose? Done to swirl it around the sides..Then you draw off oil off the bottom.. Same thing smrater-er guys do the rad "over-flow" bottles : frothy on top, fluid off the bottom..

Hope this make sense...Its OLD technology and its been done since before the Inter-net so it's obviously outdated.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
August 12, 2016 12:46AM
Duuuuddzzze.

Mais oui! Je suivre le guide avec la foi...

Here



Doesn't show well, but the top is "in" and that tube makes a curve to get the oil spinnin'... I think maybe more oil in the tank is needed too. Only running about 1/2 capacity maintenant.

Maybe I'll get a pick of "foamy oil" I mean... I'm the nervous ninny.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
mekilljoydammit
Daniel DeRosia
Godlike Moderator
Location: Waukesha, WI
Join Date: 09/22/2010
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 336

Rally Car:
No rally car yet


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
August 12, 2016 08:46AM
From bench-running some oil stuff, yeah, it aerates like a bitch. Pretty much every time oil goes from high to low pressure, air wants to come out of suspension and foam crap up, but almost nobody ever sees it.

http://i.imgur.com/pcicdnZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gV82Qfu.jpg

Couple pictures I took once when bench-running an oil pump on a rotary to make everything was working right - all that oil in the pan was nice and transparent before I was running the drill to drive the pump, and you can see the foamy oil returning to the pan down the front of the engine. And that's with brand new oil and not even with the engine running or anything.

Real deal expensive dry sump tanks incorporate a lot of baffles; check out http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/dry-sump-tanks.html which has some nice cutaways. The point is kinda to both swirl the oil around and try to centrifuge the air out, but also make it bonk off a lot of surfaces to give it more time for the air to come out.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
August 13, 2016 12:45PM
Quote
mekilljoydammit
From bench-running some oil stuff, yeah, it aerates like a bitch. Pretty much every time oil goes from high to low pressure, air wants to come out of suspension and foam crap up, but almost nobody ever sees it.

http://i.imgur.com/pcicdnZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gV82Qfu.jpg

Couple pictures I took once when bench-running an oil pump on a rotary to make everything was working right - all that oil in the pan was nice and transparent before I was running the drill to drive the pump, and you can see the foamy oil returning to the pan down the front of the engine. And that's with brand new oil and not even with the engine running or anything.

.....

Those pics look like what I was seeing.

That makes me feel better!

Thanks!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
mekilljoydammit
Daniel DeRosia
Godlike Moderator
Location: Waukesha, WI
Join Date: 09/22/2010
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 336

Rally Car:
No rally car yet


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
August 13, 2016 05:47PM
Quote
Mad Matt F

Those pics look like what I was seeing.

That makes me feel better!

Thanks![/quote]

Yeah; though it shouldn't look like that by the time it gets to the pump inlet. Speaking as a guy who worked in one of the world's top R&D labs for fluid film bearings (ok, granted, there's not a hell of a lot of them) for a couple years I feel pretty confident in saying that bearings work better if you feed them more oil and less air.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
January 22, 2017 10:43PM
So I's not an in-ju-neer.... nows I realize whys theys charge the big buxk for dem oil pumpy thingys...

So my first attempt at driving Monster Oil Justy in anger today was a failure... because global warming has made it's mark, and dead of winter in Ottawa is +5 C... Don't fawk with me Oil Sand Burners... we're doing this. winking smiley

Anyway... we didn't run, but I drove the beast around the lot pushing 100 lbs of oil pressure and contributing to the rise in global temps through particulate matter dispersal via quasi burned oil on the exhaust from the leaking medley of small block chivy pumps I have cobbled together...

Turns out you need some clearance for a relief valve to work... and the valve jammed...

I will win.

winking smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2017 10:44PM by Mad Matt F.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
January 23, 2017 09:42AM
okay...

Much thinking... when I made the oil relief the fit on the piston/shuttle was "nice" moved easily, but certainly not loose.

(See "oil relief 1", for the schematic drawn in this awesome CAD program called, yeah ... powerpoint, argh, and a poor photo of the set-up with the valve being in the chunk of aluminium)

Last night when I pulled it apart it was "jammed" I had to tap it out with a hammer, not a BFH, but you know tap tap tap... So what happened? Oil smoodge?

So I need to clearance that, but then I thought...

"Man if oil gets by the shuttle, then it will fluid lock it from behind." So I need to provide an out for the oil if it goes around the shuttle. I would prefer to not dump it on the block, so can I do as following (See oil relief 2). Will that work? or will that just equalise and it wont move? I mean pressure being equal everywhere? or am I over/underthinking?

Thanks!

winking smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2017 09:50AM by Mad Matt F.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Attachments:
open | download - 20150614_190438.jpg (44 KB)
20150614_190438.jpg
open | download - oil relief 1.jpg (6.9 KB)
oil relief 1.jpg
open | download - oil relief 2.jpg (7.3 KB)
oil relief 2.jpg
Martin Loveridge
Martin Loveridge
Senior Moderator
Location: Ingersoll, Ontario, Canada
Join Date: 09/11/2010
Age: Ancient
Posts: 9


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
January 23, 2017 04:37PM
Two things that come to mind.

The plunger needs to be at least 3x the diameter to help prevent binding by cocking to one side. A decent chamfer or better a radius on the ends will help as well.

Second, as drawn the vent pipe to the spring cavity will fill with oil when the relief valve opens and there is some backpressure in the drain line. The backpressure might also alter your relief valve dynamic operating point by exerting that backpressure on the top of the plunger.

Route the drain back to the block someplace separately.

Need a club membership?
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
January 23, 2017 06:49PM
Martin! How are you?

Thanks for chiming in.

The valve uses the stock Melling plunger, and the stock "dimensions" of the valve assembly. I only have a cheap caliper, and a selection of drill bits, so the bore of the hole might be the issue... The chamfer is pretty good, but maybe more. I'm thinking I'm going to chuck it in the drill press and just run some fine paper on it a bit... just for a bit more clearance.

Yes, this is my concern, I guess the relief gallery "should" be at a lower pressure then then main gallery, but how much? and will that be an issue. Yes, I guess I could plumb it back with a small line to the sump. Man, too many hoses!

I think I might try to the relief gallery and see what happens, then I always plug that and add a line to somewhere else.

Re membership, yes, I should renew! Not sure if we'll run anything this year, but Lanark sounds fun!
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
February 04, 2017 08:12PM
It WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dang!

So I drilled out a vent from above the plugger to the relief passage. Lapped the pump housing faces and used a thin paper gasket with grey silicone. Held up to 120 psi of air over oil... so thought I'd try it out again.

Went out to a MCO snowcross today. Well, the last hour or so. Still had to put the pump in this morning and test it yadda, drive 2.5 hours... yadda.. got 3 runs in plus some puttering around the place.

Steady Eddie at 55 lbs. I might up it a bit? But happy to report it seems to function.

More testing, and Lanark?
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
Junior Moderator
Location: La Belle Province, Montreal
Join Date: 03/13/2006
Age: Midlife Crisis
Posts: 578

Rally Car:
Don't Laugh, the Justy is Fun!


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
February 05, 2017 10:12AM
Okay, so now I have an engine question... winking smiley

Justy's stock redline is 6000 rpm. In stock form, I always felt it fell flat at 5500, and would rarely exceed that since it seemed to be a waste.

Now, with all the changes (cam, header, carbs, compression; stock bottom end), it makes power past 7000! Before the drysump I was trying to be careful and not spin it too fast, although often found myself creeping towards the 6500 mark.

Yesterday, in part due to experimentation, and in part due to the wonderful sound... I was running up to 7000 maybe a bit more winking smiley

I understand having the valve-train fly apart is one issue, but if the motor "seems happy", shall I continue to reach for the limits?

Do I just paint the tach numbers white? winking smiley
Please Login or Register to post a reply
mekilljoydammit
Daniel DeRosia
Godlike Moderator
Location: Waukesha, WI
Join Date: 09/22/2010
Age: Settling Down
Posts: 336

Rally Car:
No rally car yet


Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
February 05, 2017 12:04PM
I mean, eventually you'll reach the point where, due to one reason or another, the rods don't stop the pistons from continuing to go upwards, which is kinda bad. Or the valves don't get out of the way of the pistons, things like that.
Please Login or Register to post a reply
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login