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School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...

Posted by Mad Matt F 
Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 01, 2013 05:30PM
this is the quick response. details to follow.

the justy runs awesome! seconds after that pic. I decided to drive off the road. ..

Edit!

That was the first pass... next time we were sideways going through there!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2013 08:57PM by Mad Matt F.
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danster
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 03, 2013 02:42PM
I suppose I should have asked this here rather than in other thread.

Read through this thread but couldn't see what AFR gauge you went for. Does it have the ability to record data and upload to a pc to look at in more detail?



Disappointingly not yet a Jackass
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 03, 2013 09:03PM
Danny,

I sort of responded in the other thread. But will do better here. I picked up an old used tech edge "TEWBO2A" It has on-board logging, as well as a serial out. For the money ($100) I am very happy (came with a nearly new sensor). It will also pick up an rpm signal and an throttle position signal if I put a TPS in. I doubt I will ever get that close to the ragged edge I will use it, but it's cool to know I can do it if need be.

I do plan on taking the car to a dyno, more for bragging rights then anything.

The butt dyno says we're in the 80-100 hp range (stock was 66) It pulls awesome, and was spinning all 4 wheels on snow without issue on launches.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
November 18, 2014 11:42PM
I finished up boxing in the rear subframe mounts (http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,100407,100489#msg-100489)... and a bunch of other stuff. Pics aren't great. but painted it looks better.




Then finally got a chance to go out and run the car.

Whoo who! What fun. Still pretty nervous, having driven it off the road the last time I was really in it… so kinda gun shy. Little coolant leak from intake manifold on start-up, but that went away, and then so did my rapid heart beat. Oil pressure only 25-30 at idle, but comes up nicely to 40 range.

As of Saturday, I was still way to rich on the main jets. Tried to locate another set locally Saturday with the hope of spending some time fine tuning Sunday, but no luck. So with brain wave around midnight Saturday (with an 8 am departure for the “tuning session”) I filled the jets with solder, and commenced trying to redrill a couple sizes down. I found the best technique was to fill the jet, then insert the bit with the solder still hot. It would cool, and I could pull the bit out smoothly. This way the solder sweated out quite nicely from the chamfered ends of the jet and just stuck to the jet hole itself. Plus, I was no longer worried about run-out on the bit causing my 1.28mm hole to be 1.4x or whatever…

Finished Jets




Got that finished up around 2:30 am, had a beer and called it a night.

Woke up to snow! I really wanted nice gravel for consistency, but this is rally right? Let’s go.
Took too long to get to the site, but eventually we made it. A friend came along and brought bagels (real ones, fresh Montreal style)… yum. More coffee, and away we went.

First couple of runs up and down the road, the domesdayer in me almost took over. I figured Pines was out and there was no way this contraption was ever going to work.

After about a ½ hour of playing I was more comfortable, and starting to let it open up. Hmmm. May I need a rev limiter winking smiley It pulls hard through 7000 rpm! Would easily keep going, from the feel, not sure how far, 8000? maybe more winking smiley. Factory redline is 6. The Stock motor would “rev” to 7000 but I would always shift by 5500 or 6 cause the power just fell off. Now it is still screaming for more. Maybe once we have a few stages under our belt, and at least half the rally over, I’ll let it go a bit more. Last thing I wanted to do was blow it sky high 2 weeks before we go.

Now full throttle is around 12:1 air:fuel on the wideband, occasionally it jumps down to the 10 range, not sure what that is about. But at Pines last year we were 9:1 full throttle, with a terrible mid throttle/3000 rpm bog. (I actually blame the off in part to no power when it bogged out, then bam power on and, oops.) Now it is nice and smooth all the way through. I can cruise, and just put my foot down with no hesitation. Or… Just lay the welly to it winking smiley

I had meant to get some good video of runs to record “data” but forgot stuff… including the suction mount for my phone. After my friend left, I thought, Dang, video!! Well I can hold the phone and make a short run… I'm having a hard time getting it to upload... as soon as I do, I’ll post it too. It is awful to watch, but not too bad to listen too. Hard to shift, hold the phone and steer… so the corners suck.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 03, 2014 01:27PM
Well, Another Tall Pines, and I need another motor…

This was probably the best Pines result since 04… were we actually finished.

First off the car works fantastic! Or it did.

I rolled into Maynooth around 5:30 am after leaving Montreal later than expected (as usual) on Thursday evening. Got a bit of sleep, and then headed for breakfast and recce. Recce went pretty smooth, but we were so late getting started (10:30 or later) we did single pass, which as far as I’m concerned is all I needed… I wasn’t planning on putting the hammer down.

Back to service to prep and tech the car, and we made it out for a few shakedown runs. Car was running “pretty good”, still a bit rich, but I had some smaller jets we decided we might swap to. Rolled into service with a cloud of exhaust steam! WTF!!!!! Pull the #1 plug, soaked…

I had tossed in a couple of “mildly” used headgaskets (thank somebody…) so we found one in the pile I knew had not even been run ( made some decision to pull the head after having installed it, but only just torqueing in down). We popped the head off and found it blown out between 1 & 2, At first we suspected just a bad gasket, but wait.

I’ve had some service help in the past, but usually I’m also service crew lead… this year some guys came along that were all amazing! I pretty much stood around and watched! We bolted it all back up, fired it up and VARRROOOM! Pulled out the timing light… um 40+ degrees of advance! Ahhhhh maybe that’s what took out the gasket, still not sure, there were some issues with that gasket elsewhere…. Dialed it back to 15 degrees to be safe and took it for a run again. Nice. All good! Rubber in 2nd still. winking smiley

Saturday morning was a bit chaotic, I won’t go into details. Lucky, just lucky… Oh and problems with driver built cars… label you fuel pump shut off switch in case someone else needs to move the car while you are in a meeting. Oops.

A1 was slow and tentative, first stage since going off last year. Car felt good though, and we picked up the pace as it went on.


A2 was the “partial peanut” and pretty rough. I had decided to go out on snows, as my gravels are pretty old and hard for the frosty morning, so that was a nervous pick through the rough stuff. The winterforce tires though took a beating without issue, and again, I slowly picked up the pace.

A3 was pretty awesome, a repeat of A1, and we shaved a whole 30 seconds off our first time, 9:04 to 8:34.

Back to service, for a casual check over of the car, nothing major to do, was nice.

A4 was friggin amazing! Really started to pick up the pace, and get on the go pedal. That motor makes great sounds at WOT and 6000 rpm! Still no HP monster, but it goes sooooo much better then stock. Here’s to compression and breathing!

Then the beginning of disaster. Right near the end of the long stage (9 min for us) we started dropping oil pressure, not huge, but down a bit…. Hmmm

Finished the stage a bit hot, but didn’t think too much. On transit we still had 20 + lbs, and the Justy’s known to run low. 30 is good… I’ve finished rallies with 10.

Then… a rod knock slight at first. The wrong decision to carry on was made, just run really light on the pedal and coast through the next 3 stages, and go with a heavier weight oil at service (was running what was spec’d for the motor, 10/30).

So the next couple of stages were nothing to speak of, basically just running slow times.
Then on the transit back, less than 1 k from service…. Clackacta, clackata clackata 10 lbs, 5 lbs…. BAMMMM rod left the building.

Things I know I did wrong…

Did not install cooler… had almost all the parts but the hoses, and the “cold pines, no worries” was a mistake.

Forgot about the new restart rule!!!!!! Coulda, shoulda just left straight for service after A4 and restarted on the B leg with heavy oil.

Shoulda just said “QUIT” and saved the motor when it started getting bad.

However. A new rebuilt block that is known good, with only 20, 000K on it has been sourced for cheep cheep.

Plans…

Oil cooler
Head oiling gallery restrictor
And I have finally figured out a way to increase oil flow. Plan is to take a stock oil pump rotor set and cut in half and have it added on to stock pump, and then add a housing spacer. Will give more flow… hopefully keep the bottom end together!

P/N? maybe… we’ll see

http://cdnrally.s3.amazonaws.com/pictures/gallery/tall-pines-2014/_MG_0222.jpg

We have some decent in-car... will get it up soon.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 11, 2014 02:21PM
How SLOW can you GO winking smiley videos from the back of the pack!


A1 is really slow til mid way when I started to finally get on it a bit. Very timid of wrecking the car (I guess I was right to be), or going off.

A1: www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8Fkyd3xt44

This is A2, the partial peanut. The washouts don't look as bad here as they are, some were so deep, if I had of dropped a 6" wheel off the top, we'd have bottomed out, and that was running at near full lift on the suspension winking smiley.

A2: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCMTcnaI_JI

A3 is a repeat of A1, and we shaved 30 secs off. Still hesitant, and this is actually the first time I've run snows, on hard gravel, on stage. I was pretty nervous about de-beading as there aren't tubes in them.

A3: www.youtube.com/watch?v=be4_UiyD6u4

Starting to get in the groove... winking smiley still gun shy to let is slip too much on these tires, but I think I was overly cautious there. Need a gearbox... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA shift buuuuuuwwwaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAA

a4: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS81j9avq-I

At 7:48 ish (a4 stage), at the "tait farm corner" I downshift and must hit nearly 8000 from the sound.... Shortly after that section, the oil pressure starts to drop. would an overrev like that do bottom end damage?

I know it's not super fast, but the car is fun to drive, and dirt cheap to run (outside of holes in blocks...)... and I'm a stubborn bloke, so planning to rebuild "one more time" I really really really want the motor to stay together, and hoping to make it so. Thoughts on the top end oiling restrictor?

I've talked to so many folks, and had so many opinions... I don't know which way to go.

Obviously I should get the oil temp gauge working, and be able to see that, but given that these motors blow #1 rod big ends out on the street driven by grandmas... and the oil pump is tiny, I have to think it is a flow problem.

For sure an oil cooler... I have a "thermostatic" spin on adapter, so it will at least warm up...

Other thoughts? Yeah yeah, everybody says put a 2.5 in it... it won't fit! I have the gen 1 3" shorter then the gen 2 between the firewall and the front bumper), I'd have to move the steering rack off the firewall, or remove the front bumper (actually could move the front rad support... hmmmmmmmm)

winking smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2014 02:23PM by Mad Matt F.
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wildert
Brian Klausen
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 11, 2014 02:48PM
A few thoughts:

- Get your steering wheel sorted - it is making me cross eyed grinning smiley

- Hook up some high voltage, like an ignition coil or something, to the gear knob - no need to keep holding it like that. That is unless the stick is about to rattle out?
Anyway, to be honest I just can't stand it when somebody goes racing holding on to the cars controls like that. That is NOT the best way to control a car - just saying...

- Related to the position of hands, you seem to struggle with control over the car. I don't know how much experience you have, since you easily get overexcited the first few events when something even remotely "crazy" happens - but in my oppinion you are not helping yourself by grabbing the stick'n'wheel like that.

- It is a bit hard to tell, but it would seem to me that quite a few seconds can be shaved of by you focusing on the notes.
Due to the noise I can't say for sure, but I think I picked quite a few "full over crest" and similar, from your navi, and/or crests that just had the road continue straight afterwards, where you lifted anyway.
It seems like you weren't committed to the notes, and was just driving what you saw.
Now, that is obviously one of the hard things about rallying, but it doesn't get any better if you don't concentrate on driving based on the notes.
It takes some practice, but you might as well start right away smiling smiley.

- There's practice to be had with lines, setting up for the turn, sliding, etc., but that will more likely follow with the above.

So get back in the garage and rebuild those 3 cylinders of fury! smiling smiley.



Brgrds
Brian





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2014 02:49PM by wildert.
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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 11, 2014 02:54PM
Lol...

As for the wheel... that was on the long "to do list"

Yep, was not on with the co-driver. The odo wasn't working, his first rally, and me not caring. We get better.

Yeah re the hand on the shifter... that is new for me. Might have been the lacky daisy attitude I had towards actually going fast here, it's not usual for me.

Not a ton of experience... enough to know I need more winking smiley. "back in the day" (10 + years ago) I had lot's of practice time, and we did okay, I could confidently fling the car around. Now, offspring, life etc, mean that on stage is the first time I'm really driving. Hoping to get more time in now, but I need teh car to hold together! smiling smiley

Points taken though!
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wildert
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 11, 2014 03:10PM
Quote
Mad Matt F
Lol...

As for the wheel... that was on the long "to do list"

Don't I know that one... mine has a few those that are more than a year old. I think one is about two years smiling smiley.

Quote

Yep, was not on with the co-driver. The odo wasn't working, his first rally, and me not caring. We get better.

I couldn't tell if he was off on the notes, but it obviously takes trust. You knowing he is a rookie, will take some time to shake off.
What's that about the odo? I have one in my car - second year now - haven't used it yet smiling smiley.
I only watched A4, and it actually looked plenty twisty. For me an odo on those roads means absolutely nothing, and is of no value.
Getting used to eyeballing the distances is of huge value though. I guess I am a bit lucky there, since my navi has decades of experience with regularity rally and the likes. He is SO used to telling distances that it is a bit scary. That is a luxury.

Quote

Yeah re the hand on the shifter... that is new for me. Might have been the lacky daisy attitude I had towards actually going fast here, it's not usual for me.

"Lacky daisy" - funny - I just learned the word "lackadaisical" yesterday. I consider myself pretty ok at English considering it is my second language, but stumbling over "lackadaisical" in a TV-series, I was confused. And now you... funny smiling smiley.

Quote

Not a ton of experience... enough to know I need more winking smiley. "back in the day" (10 + years ago) I had lot's of practice time, and we did okay, I could confidently fling the car around. Now, offspring, life etc, mean that on stage is the first time I'm really driving. Hoping to get more time in now, but I need teh car to hold together! smiling smiley

Points taken though!

Well - good luck with holding it together smiling smiley.



Brgrds
Brian





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2014 03:13PM by wildert.
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buerckner
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 11, 2014 06:32PM
For the next videos I demand a mic under the bonnet to hear the induction noise of the screaming 3 pot betterer! smiling smiley
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Mad Matt F
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 11, 2014 09:07PM
iza vonderful sound tain't it...
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buerckner
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
December 14, 2014 05:08PM
Quote
Mad Matt F
iza vonderful sound tain't it...

Even better at 9K + our rev limit is 9200-9500. We don't normally use all that RPM but handy to have overev capability to save shifting just before a corner.
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Mad Matt F
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
March 14, 2015 11:46PM
okay...

So I'm holding my hand close to my chest, but lets say that I think I have the oil problem solved. maybe...

I "finally" pulled the head off the motor today, I didnt have a phone or camera with me, so no picks of the pistons, but here are some head shots. I like to think of them as glamour shots. Imagine big hair and cheesy jewelry...

Piston 1, or the far right in these shots, is the one that had the lower bearing failure. But there is lots of "stuff" going on in the top end I have no idea about...

What say you folks of ICE internal medicine.











Am I looking at lean burn on that cylinder? maybe detonation?

What's the brown circle where the head gasket was?

This pot burned out a head gasket on shakedown, we thought advance was the problem... maybe it is running lean?
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
March 15, 2015 12:09AM
Whad did the corn pression come in at?
And how many steps colder in the bougie didya go?

Do you see in the crowns any little rectangular kinda lookin marks teenie buggers like classic detonation marks?



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Mad Matt F
Matt Follett
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Re: School me in the ways of intaking fuel and air...
March 15, 2015 12:21AM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Whad did the corn pression come in at?
And how many steps colder in the bougie didya go?

10.25:1... nothing crazy. ran 94 (er best pump gas)

colder? nah all the same b6es (er whatever)

Quote
john vanlandingham

Do you see in the crowns any little rectangular kinda lookin marks teenie buggers like classic detonation marks?

you mean the sheet where the piston was hittin' da head mang? winking smiley

no... no det marks on the piston. but its been sitting since November in dark corner with a valve open...
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