VW Mk3-4 GTI VR6 Build Questions

Howdy,

So I'm considering purchasing a Mk3-4'ish (so.. ~'95'ish maybe?) VW GTI... Looking to see what the consensus is on what needs to be done to get one up to Rally "Proper" condition. And what people consider the weak points on them. I know the weight of the newer ones is significantly heavier but with that adds safety protection, which is something I'm willing to sacrifice for.

So:

* What are the weak points of a Mk3-4 GTI?
* Which LSD/differential should I go with? (I'd weld it, but I'd like to keep it streetable until it starts catastrophically being rolled...)
* One of the cars I'm looking at has the H&R CoilOvers for street use.. I'm wondering if I raise these if it'd be tolerable for serious rally use or "should" I eventually change them out. (probably going to run them for the first few events?)
* Any chance theres a list of mods I need to go through somewhere on the 'net?
* Any links I should goto?


Cheers,

-Hiro

Hi Hiro,
First before all else, don't get the V6 thing without thinking abouit how much (or little) torque the motor makes.
Then think where you would end up for class.
Just last night a guy who is building a simple older late 80s rwd car said to me "What a relief it is to be able to choose whatever I want and be able to use it"

That's cause he's building for Gp5. And Gp5 and Gp2 are like that, if you stay with motors with some popularity or use in rally.
And the V6 thing has no background in rally, so what will you do WHEN you decide that you want more torque?
Remember, motors with more cylinders is mostly about getting the individual parts lighter so you can rev the engines higher.
A high revving motor makes its peak torque high as well.

High revving motors demand close and I mean close ratio boxes and very short final drive ratios.
Ready to spend 4-6 thousand on a real box?

Maybe consider the 2.0 4 cylinder, maybe the 16v.

As for suspension, trying to use things really intended for the smooth street will only really result in you destroying the suspenmsion and wasting entry fees.
Budget for real suspension early on, it is the foundation to build on, and real gravel stuff works excellent as road car stuff too.
You can call and talk to me about reasonable cost very strong Bilstein based suspension I build. It works as well as anything, better than most, and a whole slew of guys are making good top 10 and even top 5 results in VWs, Subaru, and Toyotas, so you could too.

Are you intending to go to Wild West this weekend???
Several of us are zooming down on Saturday, maybe you could convoy down and yakk with us in between pointing at the endlesss stream of blue Subarus.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hey John,

Thanks for the response! I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it to the Wild West event as I had hoped.. I'm interested in swinging by your shop sometime and bringing a couple beers to see what kind of handy info I can pull from ya..

On topic though, I'm confused on what you mean by the classing problems and upgrade paths of the VR6? I've been trying to read up a bit and I got the impression that since the VR6 is a valid engine option for the VW GTI's, a VR6 would be in the same class as the 4-cylinder? It kind of seemed weird I'll admit.

And as far as upgrade paths go... I was figuring I'd stay with the VR6 for awhile, at which point I don't know what I'd do. But by going with a VR6 now for just a little extra money than what a 4-cylinder is, I'd be off to a stronger engine to build off of without going Forced Induction.

Thoughts on Differentials?

Does anyone out here just run gravel tires on the front and streets on the rear for FWD cars? To "help" with throwing the rear around? Just curious.


Cheers,

-Hiro

Hiro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone out here just run gravel tires on the
> front and streets on the rear for FWD cars? To
> "help" with throwing the rear around? Just
> curious.

Why would you want to lower the grip level on one end of the car? Grip is what you want, take that away and you're slower.
In a properly balanced car, like one without 65+% of the weight up front (vr6), you just gotta use the brakes to rotate.

I'd be wary of a vr6 golf rally car. My mk2 16v already has about a 65/35 f/r weight distrobution and it weighs 2500lbs. I'd hate to see what a heavier mk3 (dont even consider a mk4! puke on wheels!) with a bigger engine up front would end up like.

Plenty of people have gone very fast with 4 clylinder golfs, 8v and 16v both.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2006 06:51AM by Carl S.

Carl S Wrote:
Why would you want to lower the grip level on one
> end of the car? Grip is what you want, take that
> away and you're slower.

Indeed some people have in the past put their tires with the sharper shoulders on the rear.

> In a properly balanced car, like one without 65+%
> of the weight up front (vr6), you just gotta use
> the brakes to rotate.

Yep there you have it, the rear end gets light enough when you brake and really light if you really fawking brake HARD that even new sharp edged tires are easy to pitch sideways.
THEN, when the fwd car is sideways is when you COUNT on a good sharp edge to dig in and slow the rotatation.
I've generally maintained that one advantage of fwd is this abilty to brutally pitch the car, and then not to worry about the rear over-rotating, cause it will scrub, so I can concentrate on the front or actually concentrate on looking for grip!!
>
> I'd be wary of a vr6 golf rally car. My mk2 16v
> already has about a 65/35 f/r weight distrobution
> and it weighs 2500lbs. I'd hate to see what a
> heavier mk3 (dont even consider a mk4! puke on
> wheels!) with a bigger engine up front would end
> up like.


Ah ah ah!!! Vorsicht junge!!! Carl you're point is valid but only partways to the full truth.
I have seen real figures for the mighty, sleek, Saab V4 and it starts with some 62/38 thing for the empty car , but with two people in the front seats (you know, like a driver and co-driver, eh!!!) the weight balance goes to a pretty darn good 52-53/48. Whaddya think of them beans?

You should try your VW woth you and an appropriate sack of potatoes in the pass seat and get back here and report.
>
> Plenty of people have gone very fast with 4
> clylinder golfs, 8v and 16v both.

Yeah, like VW Motorsports themselves.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I dont know about the VR-engine as such, really depends on your guys classes and so on, and I'm not too knowledgeable about those.

But as for the Mk3 shell, it's not terribly different from the Mk2, neither is suspension and so on.
I definitely second John's advice on getting GOOD SOLID suspension parts early on - otherwise you WILL be wrecking them, ending up costing money and wasting entry fees, not to mention taking a toll on your patience.
Secondly: Beef up all other suspension related parts too - rear beam is made out of macaroni or something similar - real soft. Takes a fuel cell to be able to do real serious strengthening though.
Front arms, rear mount point is a piece of shit - reinforce vigorously - and change the bushings while at it - preferably for something ball joint'ish.
Motor mounts will not stand up to the abuse - go with hockey pucks or something custom out f.ex. nylon or similar. Think up a design especially for the front mount, that will not be able to rip totally apart even if f.ex. the bushing goes.
Get new top mounts - spherical bearing - install as castor plates, and get "MagiCamber" bolts for the struts to upright assembly - presto, fully adjustable.

---

Brgrds
Brian

I'm going to follow everyone else - Don't go with a VR6. I have 2 and I would definately not want to use them in a rally car. They hang low (bad ground clearance) are very heavy and put a lot of weight out past the front wheels

Stick to the MKII or MKIII chassis. I went with a MKIII as I wanted to run Electronic fuel injection instead of the old mechanical CIS injection (which frankly, I have no experience with and it scares me a little ;p) I have had 3 mkIII's so I know them inside and out and well... I just wanted to

So get yourself a golf with a little old 2.slow ABA (which is pretty bullet proof) and have some fun. Or you can go after the mythical ABF engine from europe if you want 16v goodness like I am doing

Definatly don't go with a MKIV

---

-Jason

Okay.. Thanks guys! I won't be going with the VR6.. It seems everyone and their brother warns against them... Still in the market for a Mk3 GTI 4cyl though...

What are people doing for differentials though? Aside from welding them...? It seems a bit non-discussed so-much.

Also, I noticed Jason's use of the Steering Quickener and I'm really intrigued. Is that also something you could get away with (assuming power steering) if driven on the street? I'm assuming this is cheaper than going Quaife Rack or what not..


If anyone sees or knows of a good Group 2 FWD car - send the info my way! (I'm hoping with the close of the season, more will be showing up on the market).
I'm checking the Classifieds here, on SpecialStage, RallyClassified.com, and GRM Classifieds. Where else am i missing?


Cheers,

-Hiro

The quaiffe rack is only as quick as a regular power rack. Its 25% quicker than the regular manual rack thats 4 turns lock to lock. A power rack is 3.75 turns anyways.

Lots of decent price diffs of different varieties.

Torsen: (not really recomended, I use one but only cause thats what my car came with)
Quaife
Peloquin

Clutch Type:
Bildon
Kaaz
Gripper

The bildon diff is like $850, as are the peloquin and quaife. But dont really even consider the torsen diffs, they still leave you sol if you break an axle. Not sure what the Kaaz and Gripper are going for these days. Probably 1200+ since the dollar is sucking mega ass against the euro.
I drove bushore's jetta, I think he has a kaaz (either that or the gripper), and it was nice. Hard to say though cause I didnt drive it that much and he's taller than me so I couldnt reach the pedals well.
Welding the diff tends to kill CV's rather often, just ask Karl Biewald. But if you're on a budget, throw some spare axles in the service rig and practice changing them.

Save the cheerleader, save the world.

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The quaiffe rack is only as quick as a regular
> power rack. Its 25% quicker than the regular
> manual rack thats 4 turns lock to lock. A power
> rack is 3.75 turns anyways.

Wrong Carl.
The Quaiffe quick rack is 2.5 turns lock to lock. I helped asseble and install Dereks a while back..
Futher 25% of 4 is 1 so 4 minus 1 is 3 so you was wrong one both counts,
Pull out your wiener and lay it across the keyboard and salm a Math book on it.

>
> Lots of decent price diffs of different
> varieties.
>
> Torsen: (not really recomended, I use one but only
> cause thats what my car came with)
> Quaife
> Peloquin
>
> Clutch Type:
> Bildon
> Kaaz
> Gripper
>
> The bildon diff is like $850, as are the peloquin
> and quaife. But dont really even consider the
> torsen diffs, they still leave you sol if you
> break an axle. Not sure what the Kaaz and Gripper
> are going for these days. Probably 1200+ since
> the dollar is sucking mega ass against the euro.
> I drove bushore's jetta, I think he has a kaaz
> (either that or the gripper), and it was nice.
> Hard to say though cause I didnt drive it that
> much and he's taller than me so I couldnt reach
> the pedals well.
> Welding the diff tends to kill CV's rather often,
> just ask Karl Biewald. But if you're on a budget,
> throw some spare axles in the service rig and
> practice changing them.
>
> Save the cheerleader, save the world.
>
> www.DFLrally.com

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I dunno what the Quaife is - but I actually took the time to count turns on a stock Mk2 manual and a power rack. Don't go with the Vwhoretex BS - go measure stuff!
Well, rant off - anyway - the stock manual rack is around 3.6-3.7-ish (not exactly 100% accurate :-)) - but absolutely not 4 complete turns.
Power rack is around 3.25 turns - a little faster, and enough that it at least makes a difference - not to mention the difference in that it is power assisted :-).

---

Brgrds
Brian





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2006 04:49AM by wildert.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
>
> Wrong Carl.
> The Quaiffe quick rack is 2.5 turns lock to lock.
> I helped asseble and install Dereks a while
> back..
> Futher 25% of 4 is 1 so 4 minus 1 is 3 so you was
> wrong one both counts,
> Pull out your wiener and lay it across the
> keyboard and salm a Math book on it.
>

MkII rack, right?

Quaife's website shows 2.9 turns for the MkII set (3.1 for the MkI) and at 89 GBP it seems like a cheap alternative to a steering quickener. The 2.9 turns worried me since that's still fairly slow (want roughly 2 turns) but if in reality it's 2.5 then I may go for it.

One of the first things I did was see just how many turns the steering was on this pig. Feels like driving a BMW or maybe spinning a ship's wheel. It's about 3.5-3.7 something, nowhere near four turns. The car is so light and the steering so effortless right now that I cannot see wanting power steering, at least for street use.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2006 07:50AM by Pete.

Its light with an open diff, street tires and once you put a LSD set tightly and drive down some skinny logging road you'll see why everybody who could, did use PS.

Saab tests in the 70s showed Blomqvist and Eklund were 1 second per km quicker with PS and no other changes, 1.6 seconds per mile quicker.

My Saab has manual rack and once on gravel with Michelins its fine but I do wish it was lighter, then the 4 degrees castor wouldn't be a big deal.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wrong Carl.
> The Quaiffe quick rack is 2.5 turns lock to lock.
> I helped asseble and install Dereks a while
> back..
> Futher 25% of 4 is 1 so 4 minus 1 is 3 so you was
> wrong one both counts,
> Pull out your wiener and lay it across the
> keyboard and salm a Math book on it.

I dont have a math book, isnt that obvious!

wildert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I dunno what the Quaife is - but I actually took
> the time to count turns on a stock Mk2 manual and
> a power rack. Don't go with the Vwhoretex BS - go
> measure stuff!
> Well, rant off - anyway - the stock manual rack is
> around 3.6-3.7-ish (not exactly 100% accurate :-))
> - but absolutely not 4 complete turns.
> Power rack is around 3.25 turns - a little faster,
> and enough that it at least makes a difference -
> not to mention the difference in that it is power
> assisted :-).
>
> Brgrds
> Brian
>

I wasnt going by vwvortex "information." I was trying to remember what I measured on my mk2's that had power and manual racks. I swear my old jetta was about 4 lock to lock, but I think you're right about the power being 3.25, I just remembered wrong. Its been about 5 years since I measured.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2006 09:45AM by Carl S.