motor build, cam choice?

I have a motor to go thru. My question is: Are the stock cam specs good for our sport or will it benefit me to change to a different cam. If yes, What are your recommendations? Thanks

From what I've read, there was one really good cam designed for the Ford 2.3 by a couple of guys who decided there wasn't much of a selection out there from Ford Motorsports. There's more information in this link. Certainly, this is nothing new to you, being an Xratty owner, but I thought I would share in case.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Brian, I followed that link to check out the article. Links to a company that no longer has the information online apparently.

I've got the same questions. I'm finding a lot of cams out there and not a lot of turbo specific information.

Cheers! John

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http://www.lastditchracing.com
http://www.triplecaution.us

Dudes, run the fawkin standard cam.
What the fawk, what is that everybody wants to swap cams and it doesn't occur to me (and I build motors for a living?)
Am I just too uncreative?
Dumb?

Boys maybe it's been a awhile since I was in a rally but it seems to me I remember there were a lot of turbo cars I was beating back then, and I think it was cause a lot of those guys got all smart and startd fawkin with cams and turbos and made the typical street guy decisions which seem always to lead to dealyed onset of boost (in the search for MORE).
One of the ways I know I beat those guys was that my widddle bitty V4 responds NOW, so as soon as I'm done braking, and I stomp on the gas, the fawking car JUMPS. And that's also aided by the short gearing. (And once it getsd going it stayus going thanks to the close ratio gearset.)

I think you boys should think about the shape of the powerband.
I want something that looks boring and broad, just somewhat more than OEM.
I'll get that response from a standard motor, with standard cams and a Cossie turbine housing, and running the power thru the right T5.

And with a nice easygoing powerband I can either stomp on it or roll it on, shift when I want etc. I have more choices, more options.

But what the fawk do I know?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, we all know that factory would probably work well, but I also know that most factory cams are a compromise between power and fuel consumption.

When we through in the Megasquirt, different turbine housing, and possibly different injectors, there's got to be some room for improvement in the cam department. No?

I'm all for any kind of bolt-on improvement that won't break the bank. I just don't know if it's out there.

Cheers! John

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http://www.lastditchracing.com
http://www.triplecaution.us

Sorry about the link to AMS being all Evo now. They have been into Mitsu power for some time, now. Last I heard, they had a 1057awhp Evo 8 that was hard-pressed to hook up in any of the first three gears, even on a prepared surface with slicks. Pretty sure it's up on eBay now. You might see if you can't search eBay for that cam by name. You never know, right?

Not to discount JVL's opinion, but where I come from, we have two main choices when it comes to cams. Crower or Crane. Now, Crane is often preferred for their increased duration, meaning genlter ramp angles for the lobes, which people chalk up to being easier on lifters and springs, but Crower offers what many feel to be "smarter" grinds.

Personally, on my street car, I run a Crower stage 2 cam with lift in the mid=400 range. With the extensive port work I've had done on the head, these cams seem to fall a bit flat below 3000rpm, but they do begin to pull nicely after that point. Consensus is that the Crower 1s aren't much above stock

The problem with the more aggressive grinds is that they are intended for people looking to build drag motors. Typically, the street guy isn't as interested in the more fun flat power curves of the engine. (Though they should be!) In response to the demand for a quality cam profile which loses some of the overlap (good for na applications, not so much for turbo) by the larger numbers of turbo owners in my community, Crower introduced the C2-turbo grind. It is designed to increase off and part-throttle power while decreasing spool time for the turbo. It's becoming very popular among people I know.

I guess this is all just for general discussion, but if you really want a bumpstick in that thing, you might consider giving Crower a call. They do offer custom grinds, although I'm not sure how much design assistance they offer. From what I recall, a set of shelf grinds (DOHC) runs in the $450 range, and a set of custom grinds is about $100 more. I would suspect a single cam, custom grind might be cheaper.

Then again, and I'm not sure if any of youse guys are familiar with either of these sites, but check out these links and see what interests you...

http://www.merkurdesktop.com/desktop.php
http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/ (this one has a cam tab to click)

I don't know too much about the Ford 2.3L-T, but wasn't it also used in the Thunderbird Supercoupe and Ranger pick up? I know there is a large Ranger forum called "The Ranger Station," where there are people running turbo trucks. Might be a couple more places to do some homework.

Don't get me wrong, John. If something works, it works, but there's never any harm in talking a bit of theory, now, is there?

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Brian, thanks for chiming in.

Crower and Crane(and Ford Motorsport) seem to be the two major players, although there might be a couple minor ones.

I know these engines were raced in NA form extensively and from what my local guys tell me, they pumped the CR up like crazy by milling the heads and installing flat top pistons.

Couple of spots with info:

http://www.coolcats.net/tech/general/23turbo.html

http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Motor/camshaft.html

Rick Byrnes has some interesting comments on the encyclopedia page echoing John's. He states they were looking for a cam with, "mild events," like stock, but with more lift and not much overlap.

He also comments that the Ranger cam wasn't much different than the stock.

Cheers! John

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http://www.lastditchracing.com
http://www.triplecaution.us

Thanks for the info everyone. Sounds like I'll go for a stock cam. I just wanted to make sure before buying parts. I think I'll spend my money on brakes and gearing like John recommended. Makes sense.

John Cassidy Wrote:
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> John, we all know that factory would probably work
> well, but I also know that most factory cams are a
> compromise between power and fuel consumption.

And they make the fuel consuption better by making the cam a more drivable cam, making power everywhere instead of only at full throttle in a narrow range.

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Pete,
Understood, but it would be interesting to see a analysis of where the throttle position is during a rally stage.

Do you think it's 50-100% for the whole stage? I don't know, but I'm guessing we spend little time at partial throttle( <50% during a stage).

In terms of a narrower power band, you're exactly right. Most cam designs that I've read about are a compromise, just like the stock could be considered.

I don't have the answer, just thinking that someone must have because people have raced these engines for a number of years now.

There are always choices to be made between cost and performance gain. From what I'm hearing, there may not be an easy solution to get a cam with more lift with torque/power curve that is similar to stock.

I'll post if I find anything.

Cheers! John

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http://www.lastditchracing.com
http://www.triplecaution.us

There are lots of cam choices, BUT it really depends on the state of tune and the entire package. There are 400hp cars that use the stock cam or the RR. But most the them are in drag racing, where most everything is about WOT, as the stock cam gives a narrow power band. Anything with higher lift really wakes up these motors and reduces lag. Having said that, I plan to use a RR, cause it's cheap and I want to run 120lbs springs and solid lifters.

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Scott Manley
Spokane, WA
86' XR4Ti
37

Scott, the RR is certainly cheap and may be the way I go eventually for the reasons you mention.

Cheers! John

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http://www.lastditchracing.com
http://www.triplecaution.us

Some time ago the Subie team did data logs of throttle possision between Doug Haviar and Mark Lovell on the same stages. If you can hold the throttle wide open 50% of the time you will be winning rallys...

Mabey one of you guys could find the data and let us know what it was? Look in really old Specail Stage messages.

Derek

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In the long run reality always wins.

Anyone have the part number for the RR cam or where to buy?

dustinm7419 Wrote:
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> Anyone have the part number for the RR cam or
> where to buy?

Persnally, I wouldn't bother looking for a cam with less lift and less duration than the stock cam.
I'd try the other things know bettere first: Cossie turbine housing with 3" exhuast, and a decent sized intercooler first then, then shorter final drive and LSD, then try the car in competition.
See if the lack of yank is holding you back, then think of the cam etc.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.