and so it begins... Rally Neon #2

Main hoop!



I officially started a motorsports company and this is officially one of my first projects. Needless to say I'm excited to share!

Check out more at: http://rumblesoftracing.com
- Kris

Sweet. Banquet weekend: You and I talk CSS, sir.

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Gallery:
http://rumblesoftracing.com/gallery/main.php/v/rally-neon/

Engine is in, cage is in.
Interior is next. :|
Seats, belts, triangles - let's rally!

- Kris

Nice! Mine should be legal by the time you see it Friday night.

WTF is coming along nicely. Kudos.

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

then my seats, etc - and we're ready too!

gilbrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> then my seats, etc - and we're ready too!

You're always just *one* step ahead of me, Eli. I hope I get to see your Galant at DS07. I'll be bringing mine. (It's not running the event, but it will be there.)

WTF is looking good, Kris. I really like those door bars. You'd only have to mildly contort yourself to get into that car.

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

DR1665 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I really like those
> door bars. You'd only have to mildly contort
> yourself to get into that car.
>
Funny, but 4 other people I know, plus me all commented What the fuck is the point of those doorbars?
Does it really meet the drawings at Sect 253 1-20??
>
>
>
> Brian DR1665 | Phoenix, AZ
> Have a lucky day.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

My mother always told me if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. At least not aloud.

---

Grant Hughes

The car is a jelly bean. It's hard enough to get in and out of - as is.
This is an alternate design that we've come up with that allows easier access then a giant X, and the window cranks function without opening the doors. The sill bar is seam welded to the shell.

John - You and I were doing so well. Before this you agreed with 68% of my posted opinions. This is certainly going to lower your grade.

Nope - It's not an FIA spec cage and it wasn't 10,000 dollars.
Yep - It's built beyond the spec for RA/NASA and it's safer then a lot of other cages I've seen.

- Kris

Hey Kris. The doorbars is really the main issue. Not sure on NASA rules as I like Rally America's since it's easier for me to just look at the FIA rules and build to those. But the door bars are definitely not legal for Rally America based upon the build date and rules for FIA. The posted alternative design is an alternative design option that is outdated and was never really good in the first place. I'm sure due to the cage being started prior to Jan 1st though that you'd have no issue getting a log book for it based on 2006 rules. Or you could just cut that out and make a straight bar from about the same spot up on the main hoop down to the junction of your sill bar and half lateral bar. Like in FIA drawing 253-11. If you're building to RA/FIA rules than you need the a-pillar support bar too.

Here's an easy readable newest version of the FIA rules.
http://www.nocoastmotorsports.net/Build/FIARegs.doc

But all the welds and such look good.

---

Grant Hughes

Here's what fucking kills me:

1. I want to be safe. I want to be legal. Instead of being like - "hey Kris, I'm not 100% sure those door bars are legal. Let's talk about the 3 fucking sanctioning bodies and how they put drawings in their rule book that are apparently NOT legal cage designs."

INSTEAD - I get the ass hat responce - "OMFG WTF is W/those Door Bars J0!?!"
Thanks John...

No help from people - just a dig.

2. RA - NASA - Make the rule book HUMAN READABLE!
The cage builder and I sat in front of that rulebook for an hour making sure that we got it right. WTF People...

Grant: Thanks for at least pulling an about face. I still don't understand what you're getting at. I need to take some time and look.

Now - Where in the Rally America rule book does it say I need an FIA cage??
Please someone explain that instead of giving me an ass hat responce.
This is ALL I SEE in the 2007 Rally America Rule book: f. Side Sill Bars: Two bars (one each side) shall join the Main and Front
Hoops (bar G-H in Figures A-1, A-2 and A-3). These bars shall be
located as close to the horizontal and as low as practical, and in no case
be more than 6" above or 4" inward from the lower door sills. Additional
door bars are recommended, but these sill bars are still required. Stitch
welding of the sill bar to the doorsills (rocker panel) is recommended.

- Kris

Yeah that apendix is for the OLD rules, even though it is in the new rulebook. Its basically to determine if the older (grandfathered) cars are legal.

Cars should be built to the FIA specs from here on out--and it really isn't too much different than what you've already got. Most cages built to the RA specs are pretty close--with the exception of a diagonal in the lateral hoop. But in your case, looks to me like just the door bars from what I can see.

Sure.
http://www.rally-america.com/rules.php
Started with a rule bulletin last year (Bulletin 18) that said,
"Effective January 1, 2007 the safety cage in all new vehicles must either be built to FIA Article 253 specifications or be FIA homologated and accompanied by original certification documentation. Although FIA Article 253.8.3 specifies the safety cage material as CDS, Rally America will provide a table identifying minimum dimensions for DOM as an alternate material.
Why are we doing this? The Rally America PRR Article 5.5.C rules were continually
being updated to remain similar to FIA Article 253, so rather than continue this game of catch up, it is simpler to just acknowledge that FIA Article 253 is the standard we are following."

Followed by, in Bulletin 20,
"Defer the roll cage requirements to FIA Appendix J Article 253. Specify minimum
tubing size when substituting CDS with DOM. Existing roll cages that meet the old
SCCA/Rally America rules must meet the old Article 5.5 Rollover Protection
requirements, which are being moved to a new Appendix 1 (not included in this
update)."

The "existing part" is where you probably would be okay since you started the cage prior to that.

The 2007 book refers to FIA cage rules and have the alternative material chart for using DOM instead of CDS, and the old rules are now an appendix. I've asked a few clarification questions on RA forums that may help in future designs.

I'd say talk to your local scrutineer that will be issuing the log book. As it was built at a changeover junction in the rulebooks you may be okay.

Otherwise, you'll have to cut out doorbars (not too hard), and add in 253-11 (single diagonal door bar), or 253-9 (x door bars) and 253-15 (a-pillar support bar) to be legal to the FIA rules.

Add 5.5 from 2007 RA rulebook pg 37-38:
1. Safety cages homologated by the FIA or a recognized ASN.
2. Safety cages that meet the specifications (for new homologations) of
current FIA Appendix J Article 253, which requires CDS tubing.
Refer to the following FIA documents.
Regulations:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/994546964__AppJ_Art_253.pdf
Illustrations:
http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/appjdrawings.html
Although FIA Article 253.8.3 specifies the safety cage material as
CDS, Rally America will allow DOM as an alternate material. When
DOM is used, it must meet the minimum dimensions indicated in the
table below.

Existing cars with existing 2006 Rally America roll cages will continue to
be legal for the foreseeable future. The 2006 roll cage standard appears
in this rulebook as Appendix 1.

---

Grant Hughes



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2007 01:59PM by NoCoast.

Yeah, those door bars are no good, Kris. When we talked on Saturday I didn't mention it because I thought you were changing the whole cage. Your current Neon is grandfathered, but the new Neon should have proper bars.

If you leave in the stock doorbar, you could possibly argue that that's that just a sillbar with additions, but without it those doorbars are no good. I'd still be worried about them folding inwards in a crash.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

webkris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's what fucking kills me:
>
> 1. I want to be safe. I want to be legal. Instead
> of being like - "hey Kris, I'm not 100% sure those
> door bars are legal. Let's talk about the 3
> fucking sanctioning bodies and how they put
> drawings in their rule book that are apparently
> NOT legal cage designs."
>
> INSTEAD - I get the ass hat responce - "OMFG WTF
> is W/those Door Bars J0!?!"
> Thanks John...
>
> No help from people - just a dig.
>
>

Good fucking god Chris, quit fucking snivelling goddammit,
I'm fuck fed up with fucking snivellin\g You an go snivel on fucking special stage.

What ther fuck am i supposed to do, read your fucking mind in advance??
I've gotten fed up with people wanting to ask for advice and then don't do what's suggested, cause themselves problems, then never finish their cars and complain.

Here is what I wrote in response to a complete Fuckin New Guy:
"DR1665 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>I really like those
> door bars.
You'd only have to mildly contort
> yourself to get into that car."
>
Funny, but 4 other people I know, plus me all commented What the fuck is the point of those doorbars?
Does it really meet the drawings at Sect 253 1-20??"

Now for once I'm goping to get pissed at a stupid fucking respone Chris.
READ FUCKING CAREFULKLY
I said "WHAT IS THE POINT?????

That's called a fucking QUESTION FOR FUCKS SAKE, its not a fucking ass hat response, not a fuckin dig.

YOUR WHINING SHIT bitching IS AN ASSHAT FUCKING RESPONSE.
Fucking APOLOGIZE, and fucking well learn a question is not a fucking attack or a fucking chjallenge get the fucking chip off your fucking shoulder!

I've given HUNDREDS OF HOURS TO HELP GUYS BUILD CARS, HAD YOU FUCING WELL ASKED IN ADVANCE YOU WOULD HAVE GOTTEN GOOD ADVICE.

AND AGAIN ---> WHAT IS THE POINT OF THEM??
WHY SO FANCY WHEN SIMPLER DESIGNS ABOUND?


>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.