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Roll Cages - Southern Ontario

Posted by hudson 
hudson
Andrew McNally
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Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 01, 2006 01:46PM
I'm not sure how many people from these parts are on this forum, but..

With any luck sometime in the next 12 months I will have my 142 ready for a cage and I will have the cash flow to get it done.

I don't have the space, tools, or know how to build one myself at the moment. I know of Four Star Motorsports which is fairly close by and are said to do good work, Doug Mepham's 142 was prepared by them. Also I know of a few more local guys who make chassis for circle track, I'm pretty sure they could do a half decent job aswell.

Can someone suggest anyone else in the area? What kind of financial damage can I expect? I'm looking for a cage that will be legal for Targa Newfoundland mostly and hopefully Canadian rallies as well. I only plan on doing the Targa for the first bit until I can really afford to flog this car or another.

Thanks.



Andrew M
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PAddy
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Re: Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 01, 2006 03:31PM
I just had mine done (Toronto), so I can give you a few leads in this department. All this assumes you deliver a completely gutted car, no sealer, no glass, no nonsense:

* Four Star (Georgetown) will be easy, it will just set you back $4000 or more for a 2007 CARS-legal cage.

* CSC racing (North of the city) is doing my friend's Targa XR. Likely cost about $2700, but you won't get the same fit and finish as a rally place (true of most stock car places)

* O'Brien Motorsports (Mississauga). My (extensive) cage was done here, ran about $2600 (cash). Done plenty of rally stuff.

Now, these were quotes I got for JUST THE CAGE (CARS 2007 spec). Don't forget a few more hours if you want seat mounts and belt attachements added in. There will also be variability depending on whether you want taco gussets in places or plate, any extra reinforcement of attachment points, or if body work will need to be done to accomodate the cage.
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 01, 2006 04:02PM
And usually variations depending on condition of car when delivered. If someone has to spend a day stripping your interior they'll more than likely charge you for it.



Grant Hughes
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hudson
Andrew McNally
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Re: Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 01, 2006 05:30PM
Patrick,

$3000ish isn't so bad. I need to finish some rust repair first, which should be done sometime this summer. At least now I have an idea of what kind of money I need to have lying around to get the job done.

Thanks.



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GB
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GB
Re: Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 01, 2006 07:44PM
hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> for a cage that will be legal for Targa
> Newfoundland mostly and hopefully Canadian rallies
> as well. I only plan on doing the Targa for the
> first bit until I can really afford to flog this
> car or another.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Andrew McNally
> Hamilton ON
> 26


Andrew,

You should make sure that you cage is built to CARS specs as the Targa is sanctioned by CARS. Are you sure you want to start with Targa, the cost of the entry fee alone would cover all of your Ontario regional rally entries at least. Have you visited the web site, the entry fee after April 1,2006 is $4495.00 + tax Canadian. This does not include breakfast, dinner or rooms for min. 7 nights. I am not trying to discourage you but it is a very expensive way to start into rally.

I haven't been directly invovled in the rally scene since 1998 approx. but I know that even with the elevated entry fees I could run the OPRC series for around $5000 to $6000 max not including any major car maintanence (ie. accidents). If I had a choice I would do the regional stuff first and get lots of seat time and a few years down the road try the Targa, but thats me.

On the rollcage side, Four Star is the best for quality (but cost most) they will be doing my cage and seam welding in my Mustang; CSC will do a nice tight cage as long as you stay on top of them, they did the Lada Canada cages back in 1994-1995 (ACP had one of the cars if people recall)and they were well made, as well they are doing all the Honda Michellin cars for the series and they are nice cages; the last place mentioned I do not know as they are fairly new (? I think), there is few things from looking at pictures of PAddy's cage that I don't like and would not put into my car personaly.

Do not skimp money wise on the Cage, Belts, Seats, Helmet, Suit, they should all be of top quality the rest you can cut / skimp on.



...If you don't go off at least once a season you are not trying hard enough...
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hudson
Andrew McNally
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Re: Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 01, 2006 11:55PM
GB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Andrew,
>
> You should make sure that you cage is built to
> CARS specs as the Targa is sanctioned by CARS.
> Are you sure you want to start with Targa, the
> cost of the entry fee alone would cover all of
> your Ontario regional rally entries at least.
> Have you visited the web site, the entry fee after
> April 1,2006 is $4495.00 + tax Canadian. This
> does not include breakfast, dinner or rooms for
> min. 7 nights. I am not trying to discourage you
> but it is a very expensive way to start into
> rally.

GB: I'm not planning on competing this year. 2007 would be the earliest and if you enter early enough they take a grand off the fee. I've got family and friends on the Island so that's a big help aswell.

> I haven't been directly invovled in the rally
> scene since 1998 approx. but I know that even with
> the elevated entry fees I could run the OPRC
> series for around $5000 to $6000 max not including
> any major car maintanence (ie. accidents). If I
> had a choice I would do the regional stuff first
> and get lots of seat time and a few years down the
> road try the Targa, but thats me.

I'd like to do that sometime, but I don't think I could make my current car very competitive for a sane amount of money (1971 volvo 142). I must admit I haven't poured through the rules though. Maybe I'd do the odd event if I had the time, I don't think I'd be up for 6 races a year for a while.

> On the rollcage side, Four Star is the best for
> quality (but cost most) they will be doing my cage
> and seam welding in my Mustang; CSC will do a nice
> tight cage as long as you stay on top of them,
> they did the Lada Canada cages back in 1994-1995
> (ACP had one of the cars if people recall)and they
> were well made, as well they are doing all the
> Honda Michellin cars for the series and they are
> nice cages; the last place mentioned I do not know
> as they are fairly new (? I think), there is few
> things from looking at pictures of PAddy's cage
> that I don't like and would not put into my car
> personaly.
>
> Do not skimp money wise on the Cage, Belts, Seats,
> Helmet, Suit, they should all be of top quality
> the rest you can cut / skimp on.

Thanks for the info. Being as it would be my first cage, I'm sure there will be things I wouldn't do the next time regardless of who I had put it in.

> 1993 Mustang 5.0LX (wants to be a rally car)

That will be quite lively and parts are good and cheap. I've got some rust free fenders btw which I'd be glad for you to just take off my hands if you want them.



Andrew M
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hudson
Andrew McNally
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GB - Free Mustang Fender Pics
February 02, 2006 04:01PM
Heres the fenders.



Andrew M
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Attachments:
open | download - mustang fenders.jpg (96.5 KB)
mustang fenders.jpg
GB
Gord B
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GB
Re: GB - Free Mustang Fender Pics
February 02, 2006 09:10PM
hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heres the fenders.
>
> Andrew McNally
> Hamilton ON
> 26


Andrew, thanks for the offer but I will be using fiberglass fenders on the front along with a fglass hood to reduce some weight. Anyways for this year I will probably only do cone squshing and then start the build over the winter for the '07 season.



...If you don't go off at least once a season you are not trying hard enough...
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hudson
Andrew McNally
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Re: GB - Free Mustang Fender Pics
February 02, 2006 10:40PM
GB Wrote:
> Andrew, thanks for the offer but I will be using
> fiberglass fenders on the front along with a
> fglass hood to reduce some weight. Anyways for
> this year I will probably only do cone squshing
> and then start the build over the winter for the
> '07 season.

Ah I finally thought I was rid of them too smiling smiley Going with a fiberglass front end is a good choice. The weight distrobution in prettey much all mustangs is crap, so going with a fiberglass front end will help out. I never liked how far back the front axle was and how far back the rear was on those years. Good looking cars though and super cheap ponies. Good luck with it.



Andrew M
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GB
Gord B
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GB
Re: GB - Free Mustang Fender Pics
February 03, 2006 08:56PM
Yah cheap, basically a friends wife told him get the fucking thing out of here or you'll be sleeping in the shed. Hell he even used his CAA to tow it to my place. When it got to my house it had 2 sets of spare mag wheels inside the car.
I say free is definately cheap.



...If you don't go off at least once a season you are not trying hard enough...
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hudson
Andrew McNally
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Re: GB - Free Mustang Fender Pics
February 04, 2006 01:41AM
GB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yah cheap, basically a friends wife told him get
> the fucking thing out of here or you'll be
> sleeping in the shed. Hell he even used his CAA
> to tow it to my place. When it got to my house it
> had 2 sets of spare mag wheels inside the car.
> I say free is definately cheap.

Sounds like a good start! It's crazy how some men will let their wives boss them around like that eh? winking smiley



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AlanO
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Re: Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 05, 2006 06:45PM
GB Wrote:
> the last place mentioned I do not know
> as they are fairly new (? I think), there is few
> things from looking at pictures of PAddy's cage
> that I don't like and would not put into my car
> personaly.


Ron O'Brien did all the Subaru Canada cars... The cage he put in McGeer's car that was destroyed at Rocky '04 held up really well. He knows what he's doing.

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GB
Gord B
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GB
Re: Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 05, 2006 07:38PM
AlanO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GB Wrote:
> > the last place mentioned I do not know
> > as they are fairly new (? I think), there is
> few
> > things from looking at pictures of PAddy's
> cage
> > that I don't like and would not put into my
> car
> > personaly.
>
>
> Ron O'Brien did all the Subaru Canada cars... The
> cage he put in McGeer's car that was destroyed at
> Rocky '04 held up really well. He knows what he's
> doing.
>


Maybe so, but I would still not put some things in my car that was done in PAddy's simple as that. Not saying that the guy is no good, but I have pesonal experience in a road racing crash (yes I know there are different type of forces in a crash in rallying and road racing) that almost destroyed my knees and nearly crippled me and that was the bar running under the dash, I will never ever drive or be in a car again that has such a set up. And this cage was not a home job but built by an FIA approved facility that did work for a lot of factory teams in road racing. Also the little triangular pieces of mettal do nothing for reinforcing the joints in the rear X and at the door X and wherever else they may be. JVL has already stated this in another post and I agree with him 100%, they are useless the way they are they should be proper wrap around gussets, many sample available out there for viewing.






...If you don't go off at least once a season you are not trying hard enough...
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 05, 2006 08:07PM
GB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AlanO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > GB Wrote:
> > > the last place mentioned I do not know
> > > as they are fairly new (? I think),
> there is
> > few
> > > things from looking at pictures of
> PAddy's
> > cage
> > > that I don't like and would not put into
> my
> > car
> > > personaly.
> >
> >
> > Ron O'Brien did all the Subaru Canada cars...
> The
> > cage he put in McGeer's car that was
> destroyed at
> > Rocky '04 held up really well. He knows what
> he's
> > doing.
> >
>
>
> Maybe so, but I would still not put some things in
> my car that was done in PAddy's simple as that.
> Not saying that the guy is no good, but I have
> pesonal experience in a road racing crash (yes I
> know there are different type of forces in a crash
> in rallying and road racing) that almost destroyed
> my knees and nearly crippled me and that was the
> bar running under the dash, I will never ever
> drive or be in a car again that has such a set up.

I wonder if I look at the potenial for injuries like smashed knees, being burned up and re really stupid high door pars, for puctured lungs a wee bit differentlly since I have spent over three years in wheelchair and on cri\uches from : fire, ripped up knees, and have punctured a lung???

Nawww.
But things close to my knees scare the hell out of me, too.
And I've dismounted from customer cars those cutesie sheetmetal mounts for poil pressure guages when they're 3" above my knee or thigh and are nice thin sheetmetal.




> And this cage was not a home job but built by an
> FIA approved facility that did work for a lot of
> factory teams in road racing. Also the little
> triangular pieces of mettal do nothing for
> reinforcing the joints in the rear X and at the
> door X and wherever else they may be. JVL has
> already stated this in another post and I agree
> with him 100%, they are useless the way they are
> they should be proper wrap around gussets, many
> sample available out there for viewing.

I was saying to somebody recently that I know people designing moto-cross frames for the highest level going back to the mid 50s, and have been watching the evolution of frames myself since the mid 60s and what's nice about bikes is it is all in front of your nose and there ain't no need for any pointless stuff, and watching 40 years of evolution does teach you something.

Very interesting because the forces we're counteracting are all obvious and a frame is subjected to CONSTANT stress, no a big crash someday, maybe.
>
>
>
>
> G. Blanusa
> Whitby, Ontario, Canuck Eh!
> 1993 Mustang 5.0LX (wants to be a rally car)
> 2004 Suzuki DRZ400S (fun GPS events)
> sometime in 1966






John Vanlandingham
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PAddy
Patrick McVeigh
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Re: Roll Cages - Southern Ontario
February 05, 2006 11:09PM
The knee bar is debatable, but went in anyways. I sat in my seat today, and I have about 3.25" between my upper thigh and the bottom of the bar, but if I end up adjusting the seat to get a better view, I may end up moving the bar up if feasible. I like the idea of having a crossmember there, but the space is somewhat lacking with all the heater stuff sitting in there...

In terms of the gusseting, I would really like to see some sort of explanation for why plate gussets are more failure prone than a taco in a region like the main hoop's X brace. Not a 'everyone else does it' explanation, a real reason I can draw on paper and think about. These are accessory braces in any case (originally it was only supposed to be the X in the diagonals), so I am not particularly concerned, since the whole extra X more than compensates for a small stress raiser (if it exists) in the rear stays. Keep in mind the number of sanctioning bodies which still require 1/8" plate gussets in all cage junctions...not that it's ideal, but I think it's still plenty good.

In terms of the reinforcements of the door bars, I don't think either type of gusset (be it triangle or taco) does much good in that regard. A taco will just fold upon a side crush, and I don't think the triangles will spread the load well since they're in the middle of the tube. Really, to distribute the stress I'm considering just welding a big plate across the whole outside of the connection, which would actually give a reasonable spreader plate.

We're all going to diiiiiiieeeeee.....
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