So are there any current cars worth rallying?

Yes, I have read many a thread extolling the virtues of the 240 and xratty.

However, the question I pose is, are there any cars currently in production, or only recently out of production, that would be any good at 2wd rally?

Some I would like opinions on are:

Mazda3 2.3 (curb wt 2906)
Honda Civic (curb wt 2586DX 2877si)
Honda Fit (curb wt 2432)
Toyota Yaris (curb wt 2290)
Volkswagen Rabbit 2.5 (curb wt 2975)


Alas suzuki has only recently started correcting the error of their ways, but the swift still won't be here until 2009 or so. The SX4 is AWD, so no dice there.

Ok, the main arguments I see about using recent cars are:

1. Cost (why race a car people would willingly buy a drive to work?)
2. Upgrade availability (too new and not enough parts, or the parts are at a premium)
3. Weight (how much of newer cars weight is safety equipment and interior niceties that get stripped out of a rally car?)

Despite these concerns, do you think there are any good 2wd contenders being produced today? We are eventually going to run out of xr4tis and 240's, so what will people race then?


EDIT: I should have posted this in general discussion. My apologies. Could a Mod please move it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2007 11:30PM by gemorris.

Yaris


The question is, would it be worth it?
For one of these newer cars the intial cost of the car is easily 10x (or more) as much as an older platform. Plus, since they're so new, the availability of rally parts would be more limited. And all the knowledge base that comes from 1000s of people rallying a platform for 10+ years isnt there, so you'd basically be on your own for developement. So in the end, what do you get? A really expensive car thats no faster than anything else out there and potentially more failure prone. Unless you have someone else footing the bill, I dont think it would be worth it. Unless you're so concerned with your image that you wouldnt be caught dead in an old volvo, but then you probably have other personal issues to deal with besides choosing a rally car.

If the US catorizgation of rall classes were like everywhere else in the world it would be worth it. As much as i like the Yaris (wanted to buy one with future plans to rally it but wife did not agree ) it simply wont be competitive unless there was a spec class for it. Same thing applies to the cars listed above. When xrs and 240s run out people instead will be looking in to wrxs and evos.

Oscar

---

rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

gemorris Wrote:
> Some I would like opinions on are:
>
> Mazda3 2.3 (curb wt 2906)
> Honda Civic (curb wt 2586DX 2877si)
> Honda Fit (curb wt 2432)
> Toyota Yaris (curb wt 2290)
> Volkswagen Rabbit 2.5 (curb wt 2975)

I haven't seen the Fit or the Yaris in person, but the Civic looks like a maintenance nightmare. The layout of the underhood and for that matter the rest of the car is just like an old Lumina APV: The windshield extends most of the way over the engine and you can't get at anything except a dipstick or two.

The Mazda3 looks like a Focus, probably for good reason . The Rabbit looks like a minivan from the outside it is so BIG, but if the 5-cylinder is Audi-based and not the VR5 contraption then we may have something to work with. (Assuming that the 2.0T is not an option) Either way, VW's history of platform sharing may prove useful.

> Ok, the main arguments I see about using recent
> cars are:
>
> 1. Cost (why race a car people would willingly buy
> a drive to work?)

Because you stand a better chance of finding one that isn't rusty, or might be able to score something damaged in transit?

> 3. Weight (how much of newer cars weight is safety
> equipment and interior niceties that get stripped
> out of a rally car?)

Counterpoint: How much of that shell weight is making the car stiffer/safer?

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Not that its even here yet, but based on peoples mentioning there likes for opels:

http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/12137/2008-saturn-astra.html

Making its official debut at the Chicago auto show, the Astra is the latest in Saturn’s product synergy between European Opel and U.S. Saturn products, and this one doesn’t even get a different name for North America. It will be nearly identical to the 2007.5 Opel Astra (below left) and sold in the U.S. and Canada in both three-door and five-door configurations.

Five-door models come in two trims, XE and XR, while the three-door comes only in up-level XR trim. 16-inch wheels are standard (17s optional) on five-doors, while 17s are standard on three-doors with an 18-inch option. Welcome safety gear includes standard anti-lock brakes and available stability control (standard on the three-door, optional on the five). Supposedly the handsome and expensive-looking interior is unchanged from the Opel’s, which was not the case in the Opel Vectra–to–Saturn Aura transformation.

All models will be powered by a 140-hp 1.8-liter Ecotec four-cylinder connected to either a five-speed manual or a four-speed automatic. The new, much stricter ‘08 fuel economy ratings should put the Astra’s numbers around 23 city and 31 highway (roughly equivalent to 27/34 by ’07 fuel economy standards). Unfortunately, we don’t get the 200-hp 2.0-liter turbo and the six-speed manual that are available in the Opel.

Prices should start around $16,000 for the Astra when it goes on sale this fall.

---

Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

The 2000 to 2005 Honda Civic Si has proven to be a very strong rally car world wide. Often in the top 15 at a event in Finland the Civic Si will take the first 5 spots and 13 or so out of 15 in its class.

I have one and it seems to be a very good start to a rally car, I so no reason it could not be faster than my old Golf was and it was plenty fast in 2wd.

D

---

In the long run reality always wins.

The civic that does well around the world is the Type R which in the US we never got eventhough the engines are available in the RSX type S.

---

rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

Robert Olson was setting some decent stage times in his RX-8 at 100AW.

gemorris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I have read many a thread extolling the
> virtues of the 240 and xratty.

Maybe, but you are still trying to discuss just what car to buy nearly 3 years after I first saw you inquiring someplace.
>
> However, the question I pose is, are there any
> cars currently in production, or only recently out
> of production, that would be any good at 2wd
> rally?


No.
>
> We are
> eventually going to run out of xr4tis and 240's,
> so what will people race then?

Seriously. I want you to answer after thinking about it a bit:

You have seen the same vids of Finns crashing in one corner more cars than we have entries, many many of them the Ford Escort MkII and even MkI.
Lots of Starlets, and lots of Corollas.
Escort ended production in 1980, Starlet in 82-sih, and rwd Corolla in 1986.

HOW and WHY do those Finns keep building Escorts, Starlets, Corollas?
In Sweden we could ask the same how and why about 240s which ended production when?

Just think where you car would be today had you just made a decision to
Not do a Puegoet 505
No do a Diessel, a 405, a this or that or a Mercedes, or a whatever, just a plain jane 240 and slowly, as time and finances allowed, chip away at it.


>
>
> EDIT: I should have posted this in general
> discussion. My apologies. Could a Mod please
> move it?

This is fuckin Rally Anarchy, the mod is fuckin off somewhere, and we can talk about anything anywhere.


Hey how about those criminal fuckheads in the BushCo whitehouse no turning over 16 days worth of emails in the latest coverup scandal over the revenge firings of the FBI guys.
Impeachment time finally!

See?
>
>
Anyway ponder how and why the Finns and Swedes and Pommes, and Aussies and Ned Zedders and even the Germans and the French all somehome keep building cars 20 plus years out of production.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Could someone please point me to some Scandinavian rally finish results?

JVL keeps saying Volvo, Escort, etc.

Others keep saying that now scandinavian 2wd rally is dominated by hondas and bimmers.

Which the fuck is it?


I talked to you 3 years ago john, and that was right as I was starting grad school. I finnish grad school in may. I have not had the time to do more than speculate and read due to real world requirements.

http://www.lapdatasystem.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=86

---

Grant Hughes

So aside from all the damn Subies and Lancers, I saw quite a few civic type R's and Escort RS200s. Nothing else really stood out to me as a large number of entries of the same type of car.

Few volvo 140's

in historic.

Here:
http://www.akk-motorsport.fi/sarjatilanteet/ralli/
- All results on the Right. Check out what are the hottest 2WD cars since 2002 in "rF" or F-cup.
- In winter (50% of GpF rallies) FWD Astras and Golfs are keeping up but are usually blown away in summer.
PS. Thinking about a Corolla? Like the winner in 2006? Why not, but remember - just the engine goes for $ 15 000 now days... and it won't last season without overhaul. They're quick but more expensive than M3s. Same with top Starlets. Near stock M3 will be the fastest in summer. Finns go to Germany, buy a running M3 for $ 10 000 (yes - only 10 big ones - what a deal!), put in cage and go to have fun. There's 10+ cars, at least, under construction.
- I'd love to have one but, as usual, we get inferior stuff in the States. No all-aluminum engine, no in/exh timing, etc and only 240hp to 321 Euro spec one.

---

- RWD rocks -

Thanks Topi,

From the looks of it, both are right. In group F at least. In the higher levels, where the budgets are larger, it seems the Honda Civic Type R has the lions share of the 2wd glory.

What are the main differences between the rsx and the civic type r?

Not that I want to drive a car that has a motorcycle engine in it.

Hondas sound as bad as xrattys look.

Note that all the Hondas are GpN two wheel drive, likely about the same level of prep that US 2wd cars get in Gp2.

More to the point what is the dif between a Civic Si that we get and a Type R they get? If struts, and motor are all well we do not care as we replace all the struts anyway, and the motor, it type R the same with better ECU? What happens when we plug GpN ECU to Si motor?

My Si has a lot better brakes then my golf did and since I was about 45 seconds a stage faster then the next 2wd car around here most of the time I would guess they are just fine for going rally as is.

Micael Sjoberg sure makes that M3 look fast in the points.

---

In the long run reality always wins.