Alternative XR engines

Pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> > And wasn't the 5 cylinder Volvo engine
> created
> > from the castings of the old Audi 20 valve 5
> > cylinder engines? Which is still in my mind
> one
> > of the best sounding engines ever when fully
> > built.
>
> If it was, the castings got warped. Volvo
> engines
> don't look much like anything Audi did except for
> having the intake on the front/driver's side and
> the exhaust on the rear/passenger side, and
> having
> five cylinders.
>
I think you'd be shocked if you looked at their bore, stroke, rod center to center, rod journal diameter.
I haven't been able to measure bore center to center or bolt postion, but logically since Volvo had cooperation reaching back 20 years with VAG, they come out with something 5 cylinder with such similar basic dimensions, you at least have to wonder.
Got 2 head gaskets?
>
>
>
> Pete Remner
> Cleveland, Ohio
> 1985 RX-7 rallycross rustbucket/experimentation
> thingus
> 1984 RX-7 reshell
> 1978
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Apr 29, 2007 by Pete.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

No gaskets, but I can find that information next week.

I haven't had reason to pull a Volvo or an Audi 5-cyl engine apart yet. They just don't ever *need* it. I recognize that the "just LOOK at it" argument doesn't hold much water, but the camdrives are different (two cam pulley vs. one), the front end of the crank is different, and memory is a little hazy but the port order might be different.

Of course, that's all stuff that the mfg's play with, too - a modern Buick 3.8 looks almost nothing like a mid-70's Buick 231 even though they are the "same engine". Even the deck heights and cylinder ordering have changed over the years.

The point is still the same - enough is different that you couldn't use Audi bits and claim it was a "Ford" (Volvo), although the irony would be awesome.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2007 07:06PM by Pete.

Ford did indeed put the 5 cylinder turbo volvo engine in the smax and Focus ST in europe. So the original argument still holds water, but would need clarification from a scrutineer I'd guess.

As far as the volvo ripping off Audi, Volvo sourced much of the whiteblock (aluminum block engines starting with the 5, then later making 4 and 6 cylinder versions) engine to Porche. So perhaps the question is, how tight were audi and porche in the early 90's? From what I recall, very.

Again, would this be worth it? What exactly would there be to gain (other than exhaust note) from switching to a 5 cylinder undersquare turbo from a 4 cylinder oversquare turbo?

I'm serious, I want to know, I'm a big fan of "modern" things and would like to have a justifiable excuse for cramming the turbo 5 volvo engine sitting in a 95 850 turbo in my yard, into the 88 volvo 244 sitting in my yard.

Sunk costs, I already own them both, now what?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2007 10:34PM by gemorris.

I'm far far from an expert.. but as far as I know the main benefit from going to an inline 5 from a 4 is balance.. and I would imagine the main reason that Volvo made 5 cylinder motors in the first place was to get away from the rackityness of a 4 banger... ie more posh.

I don't see why you can't make more than enough power with the b23.

The 5 banger being much cooler of course.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

- Volvo has nothing to do with AUDI - thankfully! Exept they used their junk diesels before coming to senses.
- That AUDI/VW 5-valve head doesn't work... look at Skoda - no power.
- 5-cyl Volvo turbo is used on many Endurance cars in Sweden and Finland. Near stock turbo (300hp) is a winner.
- They bolt S90/940T M-90 6-cyl tranny behing it.
- If you like 4-banger, use S40 turbo. Bolts on to M90.

---

- RWD rocks -

Topi Wrote:
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> - That AUDI/VW 5-valve head doesn't work... look
> at Skoda - no power.
I dont think they ever put the 5 valve head on the 5 cyl. Which is good. They ditched that head and went back to a 4 valve head for the new 2L turbo. An injector now resides in approximately the same place as the extra intake valve. With the direct injection they make a yummy 200ft lbs from 1800rpms all the way up, stock. And there will be at least real road race bits available for the new gti, as vwms is starting a MKV GTI Cup series here next year.

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Topi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > - That AUDI/VW 5-valve head doesn't work...
> look
> > at Skoda - no power.
> I dont think they ever put the 5 valve head on the
> 5 cyl. Which is good. They ditched that head and
> went back to a 4 valve head for the new 2L turbo.
> An injector now resides in approximately the same
> place as the extra intake valve. With the direct
> injection they make a yummy 200ft lbs from
> 1800rpms all the way up, stock. And there will be
> at least real road race bits available for the new
> gti, as vwms is starting a MKV GTI Cup series here
> next year.
>
>
>
> www.DFLrally.com


And with a rumored run at the WRC with a scirocco based car, some real rally bits may be in the future

---

-Jason

I would just leave the 2.3T in. I mean you have the same 240hp or more as the 5 cylinder and you know it will stand up to the abuse. Why turn it into more of a project then it already is? Interesting debate though.

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Scott Manley
Spokane, WA
86' XR4Ti
37

Don't know if it's much of a debate. Does anyone have longblock weights for these engines?

Good news about the 2.3 (volvo and ford) is that there are plenty of transmissions that will mate up that are in junkyards on this continent (once you make an adapter plate for the volvo). Right now the only known tranny for the whiteblock is the m90 that was only in europe, so shipping, and then the ratios aren't as good as the cambird t5's.

As far as power, where's the beef? 300hp and how much torque? 240hp+ from the 2.3's, but how much torque? Are those extra valves on the whiteblock (all 12 of them, as you've got an extra cylinder as well) really doing anything for you other than sucking up money?

Maybe some of the guys on turbobricks have looked into t5 adapter plates for the whiteblock engine, I'd be interested to know if that could happen, if it could then it might be worth debating, if not, then it seems like a pretty DOA idea.

Oh, just put a 351 Windsor in it and be done with it.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Ok a guy over on turbobricks makes whiteblock -> T5 adapter plates.

Here's a writeup on what installing one in a 240 entails, it sure aint simple.

Whiteblock is about 410lbs

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=96618&highlight=whiteblock+adapter+plate



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2007 07:06PM by gemorris.

how the puck did this turn into a Whiteblock wank fest???????

SIMPLE fer pucks sake.
2300 is heavy but stone-ax reliable even at bhp levels well past what any 2wd guy can reasonably use on gravel.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> 2300 is heavy but stone-ax reliable even at bhp
> levels well past what any 2wd guy can reasonably
> use on gravel.

Yeah, but'cha know ya wanna build a Duratec 23.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

john vanlandingham Wrote:
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> how the puck did this turn into a Whiteblock wank
> fest???????
>

From the title of the subject.

I'm fine with the 2.3 Cat motor.

And yes Eric, I really want a 2.3 Duratec. The 300 hp. NA Cosworth Duratec 2.3 on ITBs with 9000 RPM rev limit and a close ratio T5 dogbox with a Supra rear diff and 5.45 final drive. Mmmmm. Maybe in a few years.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > how the puck did this turn into a Whiteblock
> wank
> > fest???????
> >
>
> From the title of the subject.

Alternate XRATTY motors, now wanky fantasy bullsheeeeeet like maybe i can put a 6 cyclinder Volvo motros and pretend......
>
> I'm fine with the 2.3 Cat motor.
>
> And yes Eric, I really want a 2.3 Duratec. The
> 300 hp. NA Cosworth Duratec 2.3 on ITBs with 9000
> RPM rev limit

Maybe learn a lesson that sometimes less is smore
Maybe 240 might make nicer delivery


and a close ratio T5 dogbox with a
> Supra rear diff and 5.45 final drive. Mmmmm.
> Maybe in a few years.

Keep the paith, faby
>
>
>
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.