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More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension

Posted by Aaron Luptak 
john vanlandingham
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
February 06, 2014 04:08PM
Quote
urr
Quote
Cosworth
I'm thinking to modify the rear suspension to a trailing arm setup where it ditches the small front toe link. Weld a braket just forward of where the stock trailing mounts, and make a custom tubular trailing arm and make longer control arms for more travel. Or just make a semi trailing arm setup like the S1600s. Oh and the front is going to struts pretty soon too.

I'd be into that! Hack the stock arm to retain the hub/brake assembly or go custom hubs?

Andrew

Good rule of thumb: never fab more than you have to fab.. keep what is OK and add or subtract from that.. A Honda guy could do something like I came up with for the Fuckus.: save the rear part of the stamping the brakes and spindle sits on, hack away the rest.



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Cosworth
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
February 10, 2014 12:20PM
Quote
urr
I'd be into that! Hack the stock arm to retain the hub/brake assembly or go custom hubs?

Andrew
Retain the stock hubs with the caliper mounting ears. But since the metal on the stock arm is so flimsy, you should plate it or have a shop cut up something in 3/16 or 1/4 plate to bolt the spindle to.

Similar to this but ditch the upper control arm because that's whats limiting the droop. Small arm = small arc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2014 12:29PM by Cosworth.
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krisdahl
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
February 10, 2014 12:26PM
If you're going that far, I would not keep the stock stamped piece. Where the hub bolts up is where it tends to fail/crack/twist. Might as well just weld to a beefier plate while in there.

I've been reluctant to do anything about the rear suspension setup because it works, and I'm not sure how much is to be gained for all the time and expense of changing it to something 'better'.
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urr
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urr
Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
February 11, 2014 01:38PM
Found a drag race version, different objectives but similar idea:

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/1309_kaizenspeed_rear_trailing_arm_assembly/

The hub assembly seems pretty simple....
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
February 11, 2014 01:47PM
If I were to do it, that'd be pretty darned close to how. I think in a rally application the front mount would have to be beefier. I'd consider using a Johnny Joint rather than heims for the front mount--to take some up some of the shock impact on big hits.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
February 11, 2014 03:23PM
Pretty OK bit of kit. Fersurer the mount going up could be a good deal beefier for privateers, and a bigger caliper and pad than the postage stamp size thing..

Very short on details, naturally..
As for rod end size, there we can look at faster, heavier cars and use a bit of extrapolation: If this , then that... If 2 x 3/4 ID rod end is good for 850 hp car weighing min 3500 lbs with good grip and a lotta side Gs, then......maybe one 3/4" will be more than good on a lil' ol' innocent Honja going maybe 105 mph max---and then only on easy smoooooooth roads..

seems easy enough to brurn out and weld...just heftier.



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Cosworth
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
February 11, 2014 03:24PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Pretty OK bit of kit. Fersurer the mount going up could be a good deal beefier for privateers, and a bigger caliper and pad than the postage stamp size thing..

Very short on details, naturally..
As for rod end size, there we can look at faster, heavier cars and use a bit of extrapolation: If this , then that... If 2 x 3/4 ID rod end is good for 850 hp car weighing min 3500 lbs with good grip and a lotta side Gs, then......maybe one 3/4" will be more than good on a lil' ol' innocent Honja going maybe 105 mph max---and then only on easy smoooooooth roads..

seems easy enough to brurn out and weld...just heftier.
Nuf sed.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
February 11, 2014 03:49PM
Quote
Cosworth
Quote
john vanlandingham
Pretty OK bit of kit. Fersurer the mount going up could be a good deal beefier for privateers, and a bigger caliper and pad than the postage stamp size thing..

Very short on details, naturally..
As for rod end size, there we can look at faster, heavier cars and use a bit of extrapolation: If this , then that... If 2 x 3/4 ID rod end is good for 850 hp car weighing min 3500 lbs with good grip and a lotta side Gs, then......maybe one 3/4" will be more than good on a lil' ol' innocent Honja going maybe 105 mph max---and then only on easy smoooooooth roads..

seems easy enough to brurn out and weld...just heftier.
Nuf sed.

Que?
Gonna do it?
Whacher gonna do about front STRUTS is what I wanna know.
Is there any uniformity to CV and hub splines from morphodit-u-lar "dooble brazos occilantes" and McPherson strut cars..
A front tower would be easy---then just bolt in struts!



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Aaron Luptak
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
February 11, 2014 04:15PM
only concern with that (rear) approach is how the toe changes as the wheel moves through its stroke. No idea what the toe curve looks like with the stock stuff. It looks like this will gain toe out on droop, might be little change on initial bump, followed by gaining toe out as bump increases.

maybe I can get in after-hours with my buddy who does alignments and get the whole toe curve measured on his work's alignment rack...

(and then fab up a mockup of this setup and do the same...)



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2014 04:16PM by Aaron Luptak.
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Aaron Luptak
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
October 27, 2014 01:40PM
Managed to get in touch with a Bilstein engineer, got some real numbers on the dampers (and, particularly, the internal spacers):

Quote

F4-BE5-2336-H1: 305mm compressed length at jounce bumper contact with a 60mm long jounce bumper (removing the jounce bumper would give you this extra travel, as long as things don't bottom out), 359mm extended length. This gives a total travel of 114mm. This shock has 10mm of spacer internally.

F4-B46-1605-H2: 414mm compressed length at contact, with a 75mm jounce bumper, 469.5mm extended length. Total travel in the damper (as long as nothing hits) is 191.5mm. This shock has 35mm of spacer internally.

Based on my math:
Front 114mm + 10mm spacer / .65 motion ratio = 190mm wheel travel. thumbs up
Rear 191mm + 35mm spacer / .77 = 293mm wheel travel eye popping smiley

Assuming the pivots can be made to move a little more freely (regularly lubed urethane bushings, sphericals, ???), we should definitely be able use all that travel on the front, CV joints willing. We'd need to go to a shorter, stiffer bumpstop to use more of it, the stock 60mm bumper is lifting the car by the time its compressed to ~20mm.

On the rears, who knows? I was only able to move the shock through ~140mm of travel because of the goofy twisting bushing, so the shock clearly isn't the limiting factor here.



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reecers
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
November 04, 2014 03:48PM
so what springs are you going with?



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Aaron Luptak
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
November 04, 2014 04:02PM
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reecers
so what springs are you going with?

no idea - current agenda is keep my head above water with the twins (4 months old now), eventually get some practice welding thin stuff, get the engine bay stitch welded, figure out what I'm doing to actuate a hydraulic clutch, if I'm changing anything with the brakes, seat mounts, cage additions, then maybe start worrying about suspension...

(that's the short list... eye rolling smiley)



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reecers
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
November 04, 2014 09:02PM
well i am in the same boat, minus the fact i bought a car. I want to put the HD's on it and don't know what to go with for springs. I wonder if the blistein folk can direct me.



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Aaron Luptak
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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
November 05, 2014 09:02AM
Quote
reecers
well i am in the same boat, minus the fact i bought a car. I want to put the HD's on it and don't know what to go with for springs. I wonder if the blistein folk can direct me.

for cone squishing, HDs + stock springs are great IMO.

For the Escort F2, the manual lists 34 N/mm F, 26 N/mm R.


That's 194 lb/in F, 148 lb/in R.

using .65 F and .77 R motion ratios, my math says you'd need 459 lb/in F and 249 lb/in R springs to hit those wheel rates. that's about where I'm thinking I'll start.



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Re: More than you ever wanted to know about the 88-91 Honda Civic suspension
November 05, 2014 09:23AM
aaron it's a stage rally honja 91 civic that was listed not too long ago.

460 and 250 sound pretty high numbers when you look at the other springs people are running.



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