Reinforcing VW control arms/subframe

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Towona

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danster
Checking your shaft plunge is in acceptable limits when it is installed in the car is always a good idea so you know what you normally and safely run with.

Can you expand on this a bit? I'm not sure what you are referring to. Thanks.

Hi Tony, "shaft plunge" (at least in my interpretation) is a term used to describe the position of the components within the inner CV joint and how much clearance the joint has from either being bottomed out against the gearbox output flange, or of being over-extended and in danger of pulling the inner joint to bits, or pulling the shaft out of the outer CV.

When the car and it's steering and suspension were originally designed as per OEM specifications, the inner CV joint is able to cope with the effective slight variation in driveshaft length and angle as the suspension and steering travel through their full movement range.
When mixing and matching parts, altering suspension travel, and adjusting camber and castor it is quite easy to create a situation where the inner CV could be operating in an unsafe zone and risk it failing.
Also bent wishbones, subframes, chassis legs, along with movement in engine and transmission mountings can also cause problems.

Shaft plunge can be measured with the springs removed, but shocks fitted in their chosen position to give desired suspension geometry. With the car in the air, check at full droop, mid travel, and fully compressed, and with the steering swung from centre to full lock left and right, in all these positions (so 9 checks in all) ensure at no point the inner CV joints is bottoming out or over extending.
To allow the driveshaft to move so plunge can be checked, the outer CV / wheel bearing nut is removed and this then allows the shaft to slide back and forth in the drive flange and be pushed in and out of the inner CV to check it's positioning is acceptable and not at extremes.

Mk3 Golf GTI / VR and Corrados with 5 stud setups can be awkward to check because the outer CV splines are "glued" into the drive flange with some kind of loctite from new. Don't try hammering the CV out as it will damage them, use the correct puller / pusher.

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

Got it all bolted up tonight. Mk3 8v half shafts, mk3 Passat control arms, and tie rods from a mk3 golf (parts house only had one option and it fits... Win!)

So basically exactly what Josh said...

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Robert Culbertson

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BJosephD
id keep the mk2 arms and rods and just swap in the 2.0 axles and hubs/brakes. longer steel bends easier.

It does bend easier, but the Passat CA are a huge improvement over the mk2/3 golf arms. The main reason for this upgrade was to match the now wider rear track (and because the front was all bent anyways).

As far as inner tie rods go, I finally found a reference on rockauto. The MOOG parts list OAL which is extremely helpful. The TAW and ZF tie rods are about 20mm different in length, so I'll need to measure the control arm difference and then look for a tie rod that will take up the gap.

As far as CVs go, there are only a few that were offered in the US. Mk2, Mk3 & Passat (4-bolt, 1in longer), mk3 VR6 (5-bolt, 1in longer). At least that's what I found through rockauto and looking at year interchanges.

It is documented on vortex but i know how hard it is to cut through the noise, and get a good signal. to make it easy the tie rods you do not want fit on the "waffle rack" from a mk3 VR. unless of course you have that specific rack. the threads are different as well, ask me how i know

http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Golf/Steering/220/2

Also, find a set of Oem axles and keep the remans as spares. i have had more problems with remanufactured shafts then OEM, buy used oem, put good german rubber boots on them and run em'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2014 06:29AM by BJosephD.

Quote
danster

Hi Tony, "shaft plunge" (at least in my interpretation) is a term used to describe the position of the components within the inner CV joint and how much clearance the joint has from either being bottomed out against the gearbox output flange, or of being over-extended and in danger of pulling the inner joint to bits, or pulling the shaft out of the outer CV.

When the car and it's steering and suspension were originally designed as per OEM specifications, the inner CV joint is able to cope with the effective slight variation in driveshaft length and angle as the suspension and steering travel through their full movement range.
When mixing and matching parts, altering suspension travel, and adjusting camber and castor it is quite easy to create a situation where the inner CV could be operating in an unsafe zone and risk it failing.
Also bent wishbones, subframes, chassis legs, along with movement in engine and transmission mountings can also cause problems.

Shaft plunge can be measured with the springs removed, but shocks fitted in their chosen position to give desired suspension geometry. With the car in the air, check at full droop, mid travel, and fully compressed, and with the steering swung from centre to full lock left and right, in all these positions (so 9 checks in all) ensure at no point the inner CV joints is bottoming out or over extending.
To allow the driveshaft to move so plunge can be checked, the outer CV / wheel bearing nut is removed and this then allows the shaft to slide back and forth in the drive flange and be pushed in and out of the inner CV to check it's positioning is acceptable and not at extremes.

Mk3 Golf GTI / VR and Corrados with 5 stud setups can be awkward to check because the outer CV splines are "glued" into the drive flange with some kind of loctite from new. Don't try hammering the CV out as it will damage them, use the correct puller / pusher.

Ok thanks. This is what I suspected you meant, but it's nice to know the term for this issue.

I am currently experiencing this issue on my mk2 in its winter rally mode (ie on Hotbits instead of JVABs, mk2 knuckles/brakes instead of MK3, but the usual mk2 axles/lcas/tierods and prothane bushings)... at full droop (up on a hoist anyways) the inner cv's are being pulled out of their sockets (ie overextended), even with the coilovers threaded so far down as to totally decompress the spring.

A few years ago I put mk3 axles in by mistake and found that I had the opposite problem... they would bind up when the suspension compressed (that was in summer rally mode though, with the JVABs). I guess I will have to have to try mixing and matching axles and arms to see what will work for me.

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Runamuck Rally

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Robert Culbertson
I finally got everything mounted up and checked out. Everything clears just fine, and works as it should. I'll add up some install pics later on this evening. Widens each wheel out about 1/2-5/8in
The design I'm going with is the last screen shot on the previous page. It requires 2x 0.5in spacers to get the caliper aligned properly with the mk2/3 caliper and carrier. I could have made it all one piece, but then material costs go through the roof. After a careful look at the cost of material, I can make these for $85 a set with the required/non-stock hardware. You will have to re-drill your hubs, get the correct rotors, and get the caliper and carriers to fit (I will provide guidance and what not). I can make these for the mk4 carriers/calipers and 5X100 rotors as well (that is one option, not three!). So for all you smart people running 5-bolt setups, it's going to be a lot easier.
The price is for racers. I don't care if you're a rally or road racing person. If someone wants these to stance out their VW or do something non competitive, the price goes up to $120 a set. Think of it as a sponsorship deal.
So, who wants what and how many and what not. I'll make the chips start flying when I get enough orders to devour a 4' chunk of aluminum.

Once again, Price:
Racers: $85
Bros: $120

so would it be easier to use all mk4 parts? calipers/brackets/rotors etc? I'm planning on sticking w 4 lug for now since i have a ton of 4x100 wheels. only work it would add would be redrilling the mk4 rotors correct? would that eliminate the need for the spacers?

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Less talk. More rally.

Yes you can do that, and that's what I really recommend. It's way easier to just re drill the hubs, but I'm sure someone, somewhere, doesn't have the ability to do that.

The version on my car is V1.meh. They work really well, but I would definitely just stick with mk4 stuff. I've sold off all of my current stock, so I'll be tooling up again to make another run.
Prices in the $175-200 range. I need to actually break even on time....

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Robert Culbertson
Yes you can do that, and that's what I really recommend. It's way easier to just re drill the hubs, but I'm sure someone, somewhere, doesn't have the ability to do that.

The version on my car is V1.meh. They work really well, but I would definitely just stick with mk4 stuff. I've sold off all of my current stock, so I'll be tooling up again to make another run.
Prices in the $175-200 range. I need to actually break even on time....

Maybe somebody could copy your stuff and do it cheaper? Isn't that the way things are done?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

They can try. Currently there's a provisional patent on the design, and I own the rights to that. It helps to have a patent attorney as a good friend.

Anyways. More will be for sale soon. PM for details or to get your name on the list.

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Robert Culbertson
They can try. Currently there's a provisional patent on the design, and I own the rights to that. It helps to have a patent attorney as a good friend.

Anyways. More will be for sale soon. PM for details or to get your name on the list.

Wait, why would I get my name on the list? I think I'm on enough lists already...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.