VW MK2 GTI suspension upgrade/questions

Hi,

I am learning and getting my head around what I need for a "rally ready mk2".
I am planning on using an AHU or ALH 1.9 TDI engine and getting around 175hp with tons of torque.

I would like to discuss what is the best upgrade from stock to "rally ready" suspension for VW MK2 (Gravel set up).

Mainly I would like to know if I should stick with stock steering knuckle/geometry
or
upgrade to the VR6 Mk3 steering knuckle/"Plus Suspension" geometry.

Once we have settled on that, strut/spring combinations?
So far, I've read JVAB stuff is the way to go. Price??

How about B3/4 passat springs? comments?
Keep the ride height stock or raise the car 1" or 2"?

Thank you.

Kris:

Please read the forum rules and put the required information in your profile.

Depending where you are, rally suspension can be as easy as a set of off the shelf Bilstein HDs.

I had a set of "Group N" on my MK III Golf. Will fit both.

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Here are the part numbers. Seems to me that I ordered them through shocks.com:

GOLF II/ III/ CORRADO 84-97

Front Rally Gr.N strut 230/90 V36-0106
Front Rally Gr.A strut coilover 230/90 VRR-0002
Back Rally damper w. adujstable spring perch 230/90 B36-0655

Also:

Golf II 2WD
Rallye Gruppe N V36-0106 (230/90), 0) F S L B36-0655 (230/90), 0) F S A
Rallye Gruppe A Tarmac MSP-04341 (200/120), 0) A A
Rallye Gruppe N+A Gravel VE3-04056 (230/90), 129), 0) BE5-61515 (220/90), 0)
Rallye Gruppe A Gravel MSP-04342 (220/90), 0) A A
Golf II/III 2WD
Rennen/Race Gruppe N+A VE3-4406 (300/120), 129), 0) BE5-2738 (300/120), 129) 0)
Rallye Gruppe N+A Tarmac VE3-60452 (230/145), 129), 0) BE5-60455 (200/120), 0)

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2013 01:57PM by wvonkessler.

Genoss Herr Advokat von Kessler is right that there are off the shelf stuf that can be bolted on.
However.
The travel of the stuff sold for VW is always about 160mm travel...The insert they use is travel limited with a spacer under the piston head so that only 160mm of rod sticks out... To make up for this the insert body is a bit longer and the lower tube is long...
I have re-worked already maybe 7-8 cars so they can get good travel---right at 190mm travel and then either supplied new lower tube---made from 4130 CrMo DOM thick wall tubing--with the threads cut in to eliminate the annoying slide over sleeves----or the fixed spring seat that some guys mistakenly buy...
I fact right now there is yet another set down at Bilstein getting "cured' of the short travel disease...and getting new rods since the chrome is worn thru on both..

Seems to me a bit better is to get full travel 190mm inserts in the first place. They just a bit shorter body so the total OAL is same but more travel, and more travel---within the safe limits of the CVs---is a good thing.

In the rear, I prefer the much stronger coilvers with threaded bodys and fat 14mm shafts and spherical bearings rather than the annoying circlip things with the 11mm shafts that are the off the shelf part...
VW rear beams squirm and move so when the top is a pin mount like the VW and is effectively bolted rigid, I much prefer the spherical bearing bottom so the shock does see a ton of bend load when the bottom moves over like you get with the normal bush bottom..

So, I say get purpose built gravel stuff in the first place rather than slightly tarted up street stuff.
It is more in the beginning but better in function and cheaper in the long run (unless you go off on SS3 and ram into a downed tree and tear the whole corner off like a certain guy from Nude Hampster did with my beautiful stuff---bent the shock in the middle about 40 degrees the savage!)

Now, a note. I want to see guys happy and happy is always easier when the ratio of cost to benefit to laughs is in the fat part of those three curves.

When SBD in Daventry in the UK was running VWs mid 90s F2 program, they built---with 40 times the resources and budget you have---a diesel Golf ..
They said "Normally we have a motor that makes about 260 bhp and 180 ft/lbs of torque and everything is dandy..In the diesel we have maybe 180 bhp and 260 ft/lbs and it is very strange... Everything we know is useless because the power curves are totally unlike any normal engine......we had enormous problems with grip because the thing made so much ft/lbs at sucj low rpm that traction was always a problem, and especially on loose surface...so gearing , final drive, diffs, everything was" screwy in a word..

I always ask people to think very hard about voluntarily making the build and drive part of things extra difficult...so if SBD with VW UK backing them was basically flummoxed, why are you purposely trying to add more difficulties and discovery---and pain---to the build of the car for no good reason?
There's very easy and clear paths to making a Golf go real good with a 1800 or 2000cc DOHC...easy and clear vs hard and unknown...

Do you want to rally or screw around for years in the garage?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

liebe Herr v K.
Shocks.com redirects to "just suspension"
Just suspension says:

Search results for 'bilstein'

Your search returns no results.

Times change, eh.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Maybe he meant eshocks.com?

That's where I'd seen the VW Group A/B shocks.

But I'd go with green stuff over those...

http://eshocks.com/bil_modR.asp?Manf=Bilstein

or perhaps shox.com?

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Quote
fliz
Maybe he meant eshocks.com?

That's where I'd seen the VW Group A/B shocks.

But I'd go with green stuff over those...

http://eshocks.com/bil_modR.asp?Manf=Bilstein

Maybe...but whatever, they're flat odd what they call stuff
Golf II Group B? WTF is that supposed to mean?

And wait a minute, you DID go for the mod the short, add the green tube route.. How'd that work out for you?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Do you want to rally or screw around for years in the garage?

QuantumRallySport is doing the same thing I wanted to do, put a diesel in an mk2 and rally:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=271193

Quote
fliz

And wait a minute, you DID go for the mod the short, add the green tube route.. How'd that work out for you?

What is green stuff/green tube?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2013 03:42PM by Kristof.

Quote
john vanlandingham

And wait a minute, you DID go for the mod the short, add the green tube route.. How'd that work out for you?

No, I tried to get Bilstein to rebuild my Grp B shocks, but every single one of the puny top pins was bent. I've got a whole pile of blown shocks with crooked top pins.

I bought the whole thing from you, had you turn the top pin to 19mm, so it will fit directly inside my Burmeister spherical bearing top mounts.

Then I just had to custom grind the spacers to get them to clear the top mount.





Wimpey had a good solution for the rears that was pretty affordable, from what I remember.

I've still got Bilstein Grp. B in the back, those were straight enough for a rebuild.

As for front suspension...I use MK3 4cyl stuff. But that's just because I still have a bunch of mostly straight 4x100 14" wheels, and I'm not ready to change, or monkey around with redrilling hubs.

If you're starting with new wheels, then might as well do the "full" upgrade to VR6 suspension.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2013 03:53PM by fliz.

I'll pay the UPS if you want to ship some bent stuff and see if I can harvest some stuff so there's some pieces for rescuing battle damaged stuff.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Let me see what I've still got. I know I put two back together that weren't completely trashed as a "backup". Not sure what else is still rolling around under the workbench.

Quote
john vanlandingham
liebe Herr v K.
Shocks.com redirects to "just suspension"
Just suspension says:

Search results for 'bilstein'

Your search returns no results.

Times change, eh.

It is R.D. Enterprises in the back of the car mags. It is Shox.com. My bad.

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Quote
Kristof

Quote
john vanlandingham
Do you want to rally or screw around for years in the garage?

QuantumRallySport is doing the same thing I wanted to do, put a diesel in an mk2 and rally:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=271193

That is me. We decided to do this for fun. Not sure how it will turn out but it has been a fun project. Started out just building a spare caged shell and turned into a TDI build when I picked up a rolled mk4 TDI for $500.

Worst case scenario, it is a fun street car or tarmac rally car that gets 60mpg on transits

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2013 09:07AM by Josh Wimpey.