E30 gravel rally car from NZ

Hi, I am Vivian, I have been lurking around here reading for some time now, but suspect this may well be my first post...?

I am from New Zealand, (well the UK originally - where it is more normal for a guy to have the name Vivian). And I am building an E30 rally car, but having a few challenges as no one here seems to use them for gravel! There is loads of guys rallying and circuit racing them, but they all seem a little afraid of gravel!

My background is a few years in Hondas doing sprints/autocrosses and track days, then in a Subaru Legacy and finally a WRX doing a mixture of gravel and tarmac rallying, but having written off one car I wanted to get back to rallying for the fun, rather than trying to be the fastest (my wallet doesn't extend that far!). So wanted something cheap, RWD and reliable. Hence the E30 seemed like a good option, it is the 2.5L model.

I have access to a hoist, a mate who is very mechanically minded (my co-driver) and another who does all the fabrication including building roll cages etc, so have the ability to fabricate most things and although I do have some limitations on what would be road legal here, I can do a lot of things to the car really.

Currently the car is basically stock, with just a 4.45 locked diff from an auto model and Koni damper adjustable shocks and some upgraded springs and rear swaybar. It is a bit of a handful on the track with the locked diff, but the ratios are about right now and it could really do with some more power, but it seems like a good compromise setup for using at either gravel or tarmac sprints.

I have yet to cage it however (next months job!), so at this stage I am looking to steal some ideas from people regarding car setup. And as this forum seems to be full of people who like chucking RWD cars around on gravel I was hoping for some help!

First, I have been reading the thread on VW Struts - http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,12381

Now the idea of chopping strut top mounts in the car and using that as a way to increase travel sounds good to me. I have also heard that the E30 front strut mounting points aren't overly strong, so I will be planning on running the cage through to them and probably triangulating the struts. But if I can relocate/change the height of the strut tops - any suggestions would be welcomed. And I should apologise in advance here, I am no engineer, or mechanic - so if I use the wrong terms, please forgive my ignorance!

Next, the underneath... The front arms look really weak, but I have been told that they are cheap to replace with factory new parts and often bend, rather than snap. Which when rallying can only be a good thing as at least you can limp to service... So, my question is - is it worth making new arms? Or reinforcing the factory ones? And, is there anything you would consider a really necessary upgrade to the front end? I am not too sure what works best with this style of suspension really?

As for the rear end, what have people done to cars like this, or of a similar design? Being used to Subarus, I am familar with the upgrades and changes for them, but this spring and shock seperate setup thingy is thoroughly confusing! Obviously I will run shielding over everything, but other than that - what are typical weak points in these sorts of design and what would you say are the crucial things to upgrade in the bum of a RWD gravel car?

Thanks for any assistance!

Vivian

Are you really a Ned Zedder or a poncy Pommie?

Evidently it seems I am USAs biggest and premier gravel suspension builder so a little later I can talk to you about suspenders for the E30 but right now I'm building a hand rail for the ONE step down from the back door. Some slime-bastid insurance clown snuck around and siad that was certain death waiting to happen and they're threatening to cancel insurance.. Seriously, one step----and that's a sliding glass door with the dinner table blocking it so we never go out that back door.

But since they outlawed killing insurance scum a few years back I can't do what oughtter be done and drown the bastid.

But I'll get back.
Meanwhile you go and fill out your profile better, OK. We all use our real locations and real names somewhere in the sidebar thing or in the "signature' thing cause it's better that way, we feel like we're talking to a real human and not some 430lb 54 year old truckie pretending to be a hot 15 year old cheerleader who is training to be a stripper.. that happens a lot I hear..

In the mean meantime search around for Dave Kern's thread on building his BMW E-whatever the hell it is---1996 318 "Compact' (the one with a hatch or something?)
What I'm going to try and dop ios cconvince you to consider going to a later strut and knuckle/hub thing so the strut is removeable rather than the set up you have where the filthy Krautski bastids have welded the tube into bottom forging---and you swap out der einsats oder patrone oder wass.
See with that set up you still have the thin wall OEM tube and they a POS better suited to an exhuast pipe that something you depend on staying straight..OK?

Gotta go saw some wood.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Sorry, I keep seeing people mention about filling out the profile - but had missed doing it myself! All updated now. And I can confirm I am not a cheerleader and am not 15, nor am I 54. I am roughly half way between those ages.

I was born in Essex, but have been in NZ pretty much my whole life. So my answer is both?

Are we talking front assembly out of an E36 or something else? As I am guessing a 318 compact is an E36? So there is some later models then with better suspension geometry then? (Well that's a redundant question isn't it?), I guess I am more saying, that sounds like a great idea - tell me more! I thoroughly like the idea of going to something where the hole hub/upright stuff isn't permanently attached to each other, as it just seems rather silly and very fiddly to upgrade!

I am also looking at doing a brake upgrade, as although there is a number of race series' based on the E30 using the stock calliper/rotor setup, I do wonder how well they would last on say a 50km stage? Mind you, I guess I could just use the brakes less...! So there must be later models that run better sized brakes too? As well as being a more logical stud pattern.

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Munkvy
Sorry, I keep seeing people mention about filling out the profile - but had missed doing it myself! All updated now. And I can confirm I am not a cheerleader and am not 15, nor am I 54. I am roughly half way between those ages.

I was born in Essex, but have been in NZ pretty much my whole life. So my answer is both?

Essex? Fawkin Essex, well it should be biological or geneics or something but you should be in a Ford, son! Fawkin Essex is Ford country thru and thru! Only reason I was EVER in Essex was to go thru 4 rounds of hours long interviews with what was the absolute Center of the Rally Galaxy, Mecca, Medina, Rome and Constantinople as well as Jerusalem all in one place, commonly referred to as Boreham, Rally Home of ford motorsport from the Beginning of Time to the end of the Escort Cosworth World Rally Cars.

Ah Essex. Home to Braintree, Basildon, the ever popular Maldon and in another life good ol Thunderesley---home to Greeves motocycles--my first true moto-cross bike...a wonderful 1967 250 Challenger---with Ceriani forks rather than Greeves own Eearles forks...

Didya move to Wellington from a fondness for gum boots?
You're on the North Island so near by all those beautiful flowing stages we've all been droooling over for 25 years--you lucky bastid.

So we know what you'll be doing with the car

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Are we talking front assembly out of an E36 or something else?

We're talking I was having what we call round here a Señor Momento...
I was thinking of the older BMW spindles, evidently yours look like this:



or close up at the thing I worried about:


So the spindle is OK size, not the spindly thing on--wait I have done wheelbearings with a friend- and they were taper roller bearing that were TINY,
well, whatever the big problem is the thin wall tubes welded permanently into the bottom forging

Here's the later stuff:


As you can see the strut bolts on to the front spindle. You can change it in minutes without mucking with the brakes and junk, just zip zip and pitch it over your shoulder and slam on a replacement!

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As I am guessing a 318 compact is an E36?

I dunno, all those BMW look all the same to me... I just build suspension (and good motors)

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So there is some later models then with better suspension geometry then? (Well that's a redundant question isn't it?), I guess I am more saying, that sounds like a great idea - tell me more!

I'm think more what I call "Living with the car" . it MAY be ultimately better all round--but primarily serviceability and strength to examine the idea of later stuff cause---there oughtter be more in the scrappies, and cheaper to make a separate strut, than carving up the one piece thing you have..
Then again i don't know whatcher have access to like lathes and mills and welding..
Tell me.

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I thoroughly like the idea of going to something where the hole hub/upright stuff isn't permanently attached to each other, as it just seems rather silly and very fiddly to upgrade!

Well IF you have access to a stout lathe, you can Sawz-all off the strut body leaving say 4-6" to chuck up on, run the lathe around 500 rpm and go up the ID at the bottom and cut the weld and separate the bottom bit from the tube, then shove in one of the nice universal tubes I make and zap the bugger on.. That's the typical way like say MkI and MkII Escort, old Japanese stuff, old Volvo etc.

Easy for them, pain in the bum for upgrading..

But there's options.
Here's one thing I have sorta invented for lots of the RWD boys here in USA....let's say the later separate stuff is pain to fugure out. You can bore the tube out--you oughtter be able to find a mate to do that, then weld in this thing


Then you have conventional; "ears" like your Subies had..I fact since I make so much gawddam Subaru suspension, I've made "Subie ears' my standard ear so now there's Toyotas and Volvos and things with struts that look like this:


Rather than like later BMW which look like this:

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I am also looking at doing a brake upgrade, as although there is a number of race series' based on the E30 using the stock calliper/rotor setup, I do wonder how well they would last on say a 50km stage? Mind you, I guess I could just use the brakes less...! So there must be later models that run better sized brakes too? As well as being a more logical stud pattern.

I would agree about upgrading...brakes are the key to going fast. I have been poking at the aforementioned Dave Kern's set up, I have a spingle, hub and he sent a Compomotive rally wheel. First look-see was not happy for an easy quick upgrade like I've done for Sierras and Volvos...The mounting lugs for the calipers are some spastic dimension and for that spindle I'm thinking it may be necessary to think about radial mount calipers.. More on that when I can look at it more..

Can you post up a few piccies of the rear shock set up with wheel off and then wheel on from inboard?

Nevermind, found it.


Bugger. Short spring and the shock very close to the inner wheel housing..
Well, Essex boy it was your ancestors who came up with the solution. Done for decade in the car which by your birthright you ought to be driving.
How do you feel about a wee bit of the ol cut-and -shut?
As in make life easy and wif weldin in some turrets?
Like these


Mod the bodyshell once and then life is easier forever.


What do you think?
Hey just finished dinner at 11.11PM and I gotta do the washing up. Have a look. Think about you fighting against the biological imperative, tempting fate and angering the Rally Gods by driving a foreign car--and anything other than a Ford is a foreign car for you, fred.....and tell us what you have for a motor. Or what passes for a motor in a Beee Em...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2013 01:16AM by john vanlandingham.

With a name Ike Vyvyan, i you should be driving a yellow Anglia with flames down the sides.

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

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wvonkessler
With a name Ike Vyvyan, i you should be driving a yellow Anglia with flames down the sides.

I have just two words for you Wilson: Rockbitch: Essex Girl.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The E36 318 Compact uses E30 rear suspension.

The Z3 M rear suspension is a good swap into a E30, as the arms are stronger, and the track is a bit wider, and the axles a bit beefier.

I would atleats plate the rear arms for strength. I have a friend building an E30 currently for gravel, and he swapped to the Z3 rear stuff. The only drawback is they are pretty rare, so no spares in your local wrecking yard...

Rumor on the 318ti forums is that the Z3M stuff is:

• actually no wider than the regular Z3
• the RTAs do have an extra brace in them (easy to fab yourself)
• gain in width for the Z3M is actually a much different offset rear wheel
• only reason for the rear Z3M upgrade is to get the larger rear brakes

I've been keeping an eye out for Z3M rear bits and it seems like when someone does total a car, $1000 is the going rate for rear beam, RTAs, hubs, brakes, rotors...seems like we should be able to figure out how to put larger calipers and rotors on there instead.

On the rear turrets, any chance whoever made the ones for the vovlovs a few years back could make another run of them? I'd like to do 2 things differently from my setup:

• move the towers up 1" more to allow for more compression travel
• move the towers inboards at the top a little more for more tire clearance

We've got a customer car about half completed and are trying out some 10" travel Fox offroad shocks. Not sure how it'll turn out right now, but hope to be out testing by early July. JVAB 50mm front shocks will be rounding out the suspension package for the car...pretty excited to get my hands on those.

Dave

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2013 12:09PM by wvonkessler.

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DaveK
Rumor on the 318ti forums is that the Z3M stuff is:

• actually no wider than the regular Z3
• the RTAs do have an extra brace in them (easy to fab yourself)
• gain in width for the Z3M is actually a much different offset rear wheel
• only reason for the rear Z3M upgrade is to get the larger rear brakes

I've been keeping an eye out for Z3M rear bits and it seems like when someone does total a car, $1000 is the going rate for rear beam, RTAs, hubs, brakes, rotors...seems like we should be able to figure out how to put larger calipers and rotors on there instead.

On the rear turrets, any chance whoever made the ones for the vovlovs a few years back could make another run of them? I'd like to do 2 things differently from my setup:

• move the towers up 1" more to allow for more compression travel
• move the towers inboards at the top a little more for more tire clearance

We've got a customer car about half completed and are trying out some 10" travel Fox offroad shocks. Not sure how it'll turn out right now, but hope to be out testing by early July. JVAB 50mm front shocks will be rounding out the suspension package for the car...pretty excited to get my hands on those.

Dave

Oi Dave! Whassa "RTA" ? Reichsministerium fur Tolle Arschschlöcher?
Oder vieleicht:
rower tension alm? Isn't that wie sägst man? Japanische?


Hang on, wuzzint you spossed to be standing in the corner?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
Oi Dave! Whassa "RTA" ?

Rear Trailing Arm

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DaveK

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john vanlandingham
Oi Dave! Whassa "RTA" ?

Rear Trailing Arm

You sure it's not Reichsministerium fur Tolle Arschschlöcher?

I kinda like Reichsministerium fur Tolle Arschschlöcher..
has a certain ring to it...

Guess I better go read whatcher said, cause i din't get past the gawddam abbreviation

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Dave. Tim Taylor made those rear shock towers. He said at the time he had no intention of making more as they aren't worth his time for the money he can get for them compared to regular work.
We can EASILY replicate them however is needed. I'm busy with grad school for the coming month but will have a ton of time after the 21st of June. Ted won't be ready for them at that point anyhow so I'd focus your thoughts and efforts elsewhere for the time being. If you get really bored, well, I'm sure you have plenty to do on your own cars in preparation for PPIHC and Mendocino than to be bothering with stuff for future builds and cars that won't be ready to race until next May anyhow. Once Ted's car is driveable, we can worry about his shock towers and finishing up the rear of his cage, provided he's willing to pay for said shock tower stuff.

---

Grant Hughes

Damn on the towers. The offroad stuff looks as though it would be close, but way overbuilt and heavy for our purposes and lots of additional fab would be needed to close them off.

Dave

They are STA John, I don't know what the angle is though.