Build vs Buy - the untold stories...

I saw the ad for Dave Kern's old GTX and it got me thinking about build vs. buy. I'd wager that there are just as many abandoned builds as there are abandoned buys. So then I started thinking about abandoned/lost buys locally I know of. Quite a few of them in fact, more than abandoned builds I know of. Not more than abandoned "rebuilds" which is why I say, build it fast, build it affordably, be ready to build a new one.
Plenty of people have gotten onto stage in a nearly stock Impreza or Legacy on GR2 struts with stock brakes and drum brakes and open diffs and KN drop in air filters and stock exhaust.

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Grant Hughes

yea but aren't they babying the car and just trying to survive? That is what I don't understand. Why would you want a car built with gum and ductape and not even begin to push the limits. This is coming from the couch potato I am lol, but I watch as many North american rally vids as I can find.

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I am not an alien

Koolaid on specialstage just an FYI

What it is sometimes hard to remember is that the first few times 'racing' on a stage the newbie will have ear-to-ear grinning fun, no matter how slow they are going.
The car that - as John puts it - has stopped giving its owner a chubby after several seasons of learning, growth and confidence building, can still bring wood to the newbie and help another driver get thoroughly hooked with the sport. Something a 48 month start to sell-off build doesn't always do.

Babying is also a context or perspective thing. Until people get a lot of seat time and build the skills, their level of aggressiveness is much like a faster driver's 'babying.'

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2013 06:38PM by Morison.

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reecers
yea but aren't they babying the car and just trying to survive? That is what I don't understand. Why would you want a car built with gum and ductape and not even begin to push the limits. This is coming from the couch potato I am lol, but I watch as many North american rally vids as I can find.

Trust me, 20-30 years ago most of the cars, at least at the club level, were built with gum and duct tape and we were not babying them. (Right, Gene?) Back then coilovers were not the norm but an extreme exception. A hot suspension was some GAB struts and maybe some stiffer springs. I had some nice DeCarbon rally shocks that JV got me and some Volvo wagon springs on my Opel Manta. That was actually fancier than a lot of the cars. Drum rear brakes, a welded diff and Sears retread snow tires and we drove the piss out of it. I'm sure I had less than $1500 in my first rally car that I built from scratch when I first hit the stages and that includes paying somebody else (a whopping $350) to build the rollcage. Car prep has elevated exponentially over the years.

in the good old day when you could buy an out of date show room stock road racing car with a pile of spares for the right price i would say buy .
but now with the very different rules i would say buy the ss car and its spares then rebuild and rally

an improved touring or other road racer car is pretty close adjust the cage and suspension

if the deal is right on some elses project go for it, better that than the crusher of the back yard to rust.

the good thing about building is you can make it yours
the good thing about buying is it can be near if not turn key

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

'Pushing the limits' comes after a long, long time on stage. Any decent set of parts will get you going, learning, and having a blast.

I kind of wish I would have just bought one. Mine doesn't even run yet and I'm alresdy getting close cash wise, to a couple of these turn key cars are going for. Then again, I don't like working with other people stuff sooo....

I suppose I should have articulated my point a little better.
In discussions of build vs. buy, people always say, "buying is better, you get on stage faster." I contest that while this is true it also implies that buying gets you on stage at all, often times people that buy end up never getting on stage. Seeing Dave's GTX show back up after a few years made me think of all the cars that have been bought and disappeared. I can think of five without much effort. Would have been six but the buyer just sold it again to someone who's brought it back out already. Oh, just thought of three others... I can only think of three that were bought and made it to another stage rally. 2/3 were 20k+ open class cars.

I contend it has LESS to do with the time, and more to do with the type of person/personality.

The builds that come to mind that are basically abandoned or not really getting any or much progress are actually rebuilds of cars that have competed and were being "upgraded" in some shape or form.

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Grant Hughes

I suspect you are right in many cases Grant, but sometimes life justs changes on you. It is in the nature of amateur racing of all sorts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2013 05:42PM by starion887.

some day i feel like jens larson

i liked my starion, its was turn key ssa car turned rally car
i liked my rabbit, celica, toyota pick and mirage they were builds

so many folks buy a car they can't afford it sits in the drive way if its lucky it gets autocrossed or rallycrossed a couple times and driven to work some then it sits untill its sold or parted out.

there needs to be a sportsman class with bolt in cages and small cc engines as a starter class

i hate seeing a good old rally or racing car go to not

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

Like starion887 said, things change. Not to mention motor sports, rally especially, is a HUUUGE money and time pit. I haven't even gotten to stage yet and have that figured out lol! I'd imagine some buy or start a build looking through huge, excited doe eyes. Then when the reality of the amount of commitment kicks in, the enthusiasm starts to fade.... my thoughts anyhow.

i agree a bud started a saab project a while back with the its only credit thinking
the car is sitting next to the road with half a cage and no love.

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

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Doivi Clarkinen

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reecers
yea but aren't they babying the car and just trying to survive? That is what I don't understand. Why would you want a car built with gum and ductape and not even begin to push the limits. This is coming from the couch potato I am lol, but I watch as many North american rally vids as I can find.

Trust me, 20-30 years ago most of the cars, at least at the club level, were built with gum and duct tape and we were not babying them. (Right, Gene?) Back then coilovers were not the norm but an extreme exception. A hot suspension was some GAB struts and maybe some stiffer springs. I had some nice DeCarbon rally shocks that JV got me and some Volvo wagon springs on my Opel Manta. That was actually fancier than a lot of the cars. Drum rear brakes, a welded diff and Sears retread snow tires and we drove the piss out of it. I'm sure I had less than $1500 in my first rally car that I built from scratch when I first hit the stages and that includes paying somebody else (a whopping $350) to build the rollcage. Car prep has elevated exponentially over the years.

But other than the increased cost of roll cage and safety equipment, is there any reason to not start out in rally by doing something like this?

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"The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know and have so much more to learn." - Claude Rouelle, Optimum G lecture June, 2011

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MeCalledEvan
But other than the increased cost of roll cage and safety equipment, is there any reason to not start out in rally by doing something like this?

What you will often hear is something along the lines of, "It will cost you $1000 in entry fees and another $2000 in fuel and hotels and food and beer plus time off work, why would you show up with a vastly inferior product that can't possibly compete or likely finish the rally."
I've heard the same argument used for recce also.

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Grant Hughes

I look at the price of rally now and am amazed. I know I have built at least 3 cages between '04 and '07 that never saw a stage.

While I understand the principal of what JV says, the reality is that IF and when all done a person has a 40 year old state of the art car, except for the power train.

The average guy will never be able to push to the level of the factory guys back in the day and a stockish car will not be stressed enough to need the over the top , take forever mods. As Dave pointed out we went plenty fast on near nothing back then. With the average guy getting maybe 3 events a year , reliablity is good but you won't wear a car out like running 6-8 events a year like we did in the dark ages.