Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build

Few updates on the Dart this week.

Just went ahead and had them cut the door bars out to redo them. The benefits of doing it again correctly won over me being pissed off that it was done kind of wrong in the first place. They will end up fitting better, clearance my window cranks (no power windows required now) and will be legal for all the sanctioning bodies. What's another few hours of work when it's getting so much done already. At least that's what I keep telling myself.

They cut out the trunk tire well since we are putting in a cell. They measured and decided to move the upper shock mount so the shock isn't at such a nasty angle. I liked the idea and it will be easier to convert to 4 link or something in the future as well.



Bar going across between the tubes will end up being the upper shock mount after they sort out the shock length with Fox.



Some tube fitment...



They are extending the rear down tubes now to tie into the rear leaf spring mounts and frame. Should have some more pics of the rest of the rear cage mocked up pretty soon.





They had some fun getting the headers in the first time and mocking up engine fitment. Turned out ok. There is some trimming, bending and clearance issues, but nothing really that bad.





I'm glad they are going at a good pace. At this rate I think they will hit the goal of running/driving by April 1st.

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Thanks,

Kevin Wesley

I think those back-stays are going to cause you problems - depending on where you want to race the car.

Before you go too far down that road you may want to check with various sanctioning bodies on their thoughts. (If you already have... nevermind)

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Kevin,

I may be wrong but I vaguely recall a rule about cages not extending beyond stock strut mount points?

Had a quick peek at the FIA doc I have here...

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8.3.2.5: 253-47 Additional constraints :
Longitudinally, the safety cage must be entirely contained between the mounting points of the front and rear suspension elements carrying the vertical loads (springs and shock absorbers).

It goes on to say...

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Supplementary reinforcements exceeding these limits are authorised between the safety cage and the anchorage points of the rear anti-roll bars on the bodyshell/chassis

I don't know if this helps or not.

Nice build though.

Simon
USUK Racing

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Simon Wright
Owner/Driver USUK Racing - Home of the USUK Racing LED Light Bars!

North America Rally Map

Been digging a bit more. Rally-America pretty much defer to the FIA specs, but NASA Rally Sport have more detailed rules in their rule set. One of the NRS rules says...

Quote
Although not required to do so, the backstays usually connect to the rear strut towers.

So, clear as mud, huh?

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Simon Wright
Owner/Driver USUK Racing - Home of the USUK Racing LED Light Bars!

North America Rally Map

Leaf spring mounts are clear to the back. If im reading the fia rule correct he is fine? He said his cage is mounting back at where the SPRING mounts?

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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The bend in the backstays also jumped out at me... fwiw

from 253-8
"They must form an angle of at least 30° with the vertical,
must run rearwards and be straight and as close as possible
to the interior side panels of the bodyshell."

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2013 06:35PM by Morison.

Ya didn't ax but if I was doing a high power rwd car I would give serious thought to this simple deal:
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=137980

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dobuy;1530156
Just at the stage of fitting my round turrets to the MK1. Had a good search through the archives and there is lots of information all over the place but felt that an idiots guide (for me) would be well worth collating, before I start cutting.

The standard response to fitting turrets is to fit the axle and use that as a reference to plumb a line upward to mark the centre of the turret box. However like several others who have done this, I can't fit an axle easily (no leafs) so want to do it based on measurements.

So the condensation of my searches adds up to this.

Here are some measurements that I found....


With regard to using the bump stops on the chassis rail as a reference...



Thread here with the "order of washers" for Billies http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=122781


OK, next I stole some images from the forums, apologies to anyone who is upset or offended. In no particular order

















Finally using an internet archiving program www.archive.org and had a look at Gary's write up, originally at http://www.classicrsfords.co.uk/5link.htm



Then there are some pictures from my car, as I try to apply the measurements from both GRP4's comments above and Gary's comments about the bump stops.

My axle suspension mounts 43" across



Centre of bump stop mount to centre of front leaf spring bolt hole is 20"



As per GRP4's measurements 28.5"s from door opening


Inside with same 28.5"measurement


Problem is that the centre of the bump stops and the 39" measurement do not line up, as they are about 2 cm's out. I could be taking the measurement from the wrong part

of the door opening, as you have several possibilities where the measurement is taken from


Anyway, that is my little bit of search, can anyone offer any measurements or suggestions (short of fitting the axle or leaf spring) to refine my centrepoint position for the turret, both top and bottom. Likewise any hot tips to help with the cutting of the opening.

Scaled up, of course. This would allow you A) nice 9.3" travel and easy selection of springs a much nicer place to attach the back stays and diagonals and a tube up from main hoop to the backstay/diagonals junction

The more power you have the more rear travel is important on gravel....

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thanks for the feedback everybody. That's what I'm looking for by posting this stuff.

John - The car has to be leaf spring right now for various reasons. In a couple years I will look at some rear suspension changes.

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Thanks,

Kevin Wesley

Quote
kwesley
Thanks for the feedback everybody. That's what I'm looking for by posting this stuff.

John - The car has to be leaf spring right now for various reasons. In a couple years I will look at some rear suspension changes.

Has to be? "various" reasons..
Come on that's too vague.
Whu "has to be"?
What "various" reasons?

If you have to use leaf then study how the btsy car in the world solved the problem of the changing length of the springs.
And the towers/turrets can be used with doing the coil in the logical way, but you don't have to, you can just put the shocks in the tower...just like Ford did.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

this will help with spring wrap
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Camaro-Leaf-Spring-Sliders,60313.html

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I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!

I can tell you from a crapcan racing standpoint, the rear bars are a fail, because they have a bend in them (even though it's small and at the back), and they terminate behind the end of the rear tires. Also, with a fuel cell, the Lemons guys DON'T want the fuel cell tied to the cage. They want bars around it, but want that structure independent of the rollover structure. I'm not saying that's what's best, but that's the little bit of road racing weenie perspective I can offer. Road race and rally types want those rear bars coming down as close to 45 degrees as practical.

I understand what you're trying to accomplish here, but check with the relevant tech stewards before proceeding. Doing something that ends near the rear axle line is going to probably be your best bet, even if you have to continue to use leaf springs. You may be better off tying in the rear spring mounts with some boxed "frame rails" that tie in to rear bars that terminate closer to the 45 degree desires of those tech stewards.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

So it looks like based on the rear suspension point the back stays are ok for the FIA.

NASA Rally says 30 degrees... "The backstays must be attached near the roofline and near the top outer bends of the main rollbar or lateral rollbars,on both sides of the car. They must make an angle of at least 30° relative to a vertical plane, must run rearwards, must be straight, and be placed as close as practical to the interior side panels of the body shell. Although not required to do so, the backstays usually connect to the rear strut towers."

NASA Road Race says 30 degrees... "15.6.11 Rear Braces - The main hoop should have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The braces shall be attached as near as possible to the top of the main hoop, and no more than six (6) inches below the top. The braces should not contain any bends*. There must be at least 30 degrees between the plane of the main hoop and the plane of the rear braces may consist of an “X” pattern design. The main hoop braces may be mounted at the rear shock mounts or suspension pickup points (providing that the braces remain in compliance with all other sections of the CCR). They may go through any rear bulkhead(s) provided the bulkhead(s) is sealed around the cage braces. *There may be certain exceptions allowed for cars that can not possible meet this “no bend” requirement. One exception is listed [Ref15.6.11.A)]. Other exceptions may be made if all of the required bars meet the specifications for a vehicle in the next heavier weight classification and the alternative design is submitted to the NASA National Office for special allowance."

Pikes Peak say's 30 degrees... "The fore-aft bracing must be attached as near as possible to the main roll hoop but no more than six (6) inches below the top of the hoop and at an inclined angle of at least thirty(30) degrees."

If it's going to run anything, it will primarily be NASA in AIX and a tarmac event if they have any. Trying to get all tech inspectors happy will not be possible, I'm sure of that.

I'll have them hold up a couple days until I can get the minor bend answered clearly.

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Thanks,

Kevin Wesley

The backstays on my car connected to the floor behind the wheels wells and had a bend in them right above that, not the same as your car but similar idea. The car was logbooked in the early 2000's by SCCA and was grandfathered into Rally America per the 2006(?) rulebook. Even though it was grandfathered in, at every event I had a the scrutineer look at the cage and say it was wrong. Since it was grandfathered in, they never put a "fix it" in the logbook. I was personally told by Mike Hurst to fix it. He explained that the cage was effectively eliminating the rear crumple zone. If we had a bad rear impact, the force was going to directly to the cage and that would be bad for both the passengers and the car. I ended up changing the cage.

Get confirmation from Hurst if you plan to get a Rally America Logbook because their interpretation of the rules may be different than yours. I would change it if I were you, it's just going to be easier to deal with in the long run.

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Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com

Just sent an email to Mike, we'll see what he has to say.

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Thanks,

Kevin Wesley

Quote
john vanlandingham
Has to be? "various" reasons..
Come on that's too vague.
Whu "has to be"?
What "various" reasons?

If you have to use leaf then study how the btsy car in the world solved the problem of the changing length of the springs.
And the towers/turrets can be used with doing the coil in the logical way, but you don't have to, you can just put the shocks in the tower...just like Ford did.

Too vague? I thought more of too boring.

The car needs to be torsion bar and leaf springs for tarmac, road course and autocross events. I've set a standard over many years of being fast in stock suspended Mopars and have proven that you can be fast with leaf springs. Need to maintain that for the foreseeable future when it relates to asphalt and at events that will be supported by my current sponsors.

There is a big misconception in the Mopar community that you have to cut the front/rear suspension off the cars and replace them with coilovers. Currently, all of the fastest old Mopars that are at these events are all torsion/leaf cars. I would like to continue to beat down the coilover crowd, it's fun.

If, at some point I want to get all serious gravel with the car, I would consider ditching the leafs springs. But, even then I think there is some clear guidance on getting a leaf car to work fairly well, as you referenced.

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Thanks,

Kevin Wesley