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Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build

Posted by kwesley 
john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
December 20, 2013 12:50PM
Quote
kwesley
Quote
john vanlandingham
Has to be? "various" reasons..
Come on that's too vague.
Whu "has to be"?
What "various" reasons?

If you have to use leaf then study how the btsy car in the world solved the problem of the changing length of the springs.
And the towers/turrets can be used with doing the coil in the logical way, but you don't have to, you can just put the shocks in the tower...just like Ford did.

Too vague? I thought more of too boring.

The car needs to be torsion bar and leaf springs for tarmac, road course and autocross events. I've set a standard over many years of being fast in stock suspended Mopars and have proven that you can be fast with leaf springs. Need to maintain that for the foreseeable future when it relates to asphalt and at events that will be supported by my current sponsors.

There is a big misconception in the Mopar community that you have to cut the front/rear suspension off the cars and replace them with coilovers. Currently, all of the fastest old Mopars that are at these events are all torsion/leaf cars. I would like to continue to beat down the coilover crowd, it's fun.

If, at some point I want to get all serious gravel with the car, I would consider ditching the leafs springs. But, even then I think there is some clear guidance on getting a leaf car to work fairly well, as you referenced.

Kevin the coolest car in ever made by humans, the Escort MkI and MkII in 99% of all their exploits beating everything in the entire world, it was done with leaf springs.... I am not suggesting you get rid of those..
I am gently suggesting that the leaf springs be controlled by shocks mounted in a good position and without funny angles that change drastically and suffer increasing or decreasing force on them from the angle change...

Ed posted a link to roller front mounts---which is exactly what Ford did to mitigate the axle position change as the leaf gets effectively longer or shorter---which pushes the axle around which doesn't seem like something I'd want happening on any surface in a car I was trying to drive in control with vigor.
So keep the leafs, just think about getting the position of the shocks so the damping is predictable and consistent (basically so that the shocks are near 90 to the links at the "average" position, or "in the most up and down portion of the arc that the stuff swings in"

Just a thought. It may be different from what you've done in the past, and you say you've made the stuff work and you like it but that doesn't mean you may not like it more if you do it better--just like bringing the tubes to the tower is better than looooooooooooooooooooooooooong tubes going to a weak trunk floor (I mean come on man look at shit from a side view..trunk floor is skinny ass sheetmetal sticking way out horisontal...Draw a big fat arrow representing BIG FORCE at the very end of a long flat piece of metal----the longer the horisontal metal sticks out the more the BIG FAT FORCE will be able to deflect the metal... Now thinking of a tube 35-40% of that length and it goes to the vertical wall of a tower. Clearly its stronger and better for making the cage forces dissipate somewhere strong---and the shock loads coming into the structure (body and cage) to be dissapated or (the fancy engineering word is "resolved) into the cage...That is why people do that when they think it thru--although most just do it because that's what they've seen and then rationalise a buncha reasons why)

But whatever.



John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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phlat65
Sean Medcroft
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
December 20, 2013 01:16PM
Here is my car that was logbooked in 2010 RA, and never had a complaint.

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NoCoast
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
December 20, 2013 01:25PM
I think the bend will be biggest concern since most rule books I've looked at specify straight. Though can't say for sure on the road racing ones since I usually just look for what I have to do differently and don't really like getting creative with the roll cage. Creativity often leads to cutting in my experience.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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kwesley
Kevin Wesley
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
December 20, 2013 01:31PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
I am gently suggesting that the leaf springs be controlled by shocks mounted in a good position and without funny angles that change drastically and suffer increasing or decreasing force on them from the angle change...

So keep the leafs, just think about getting the position of the shocks so the damping is predictable and consistent (basically so that the shocks are near 90 to the links at the "average" position, or "in the most up and down portion of the arc that the stuff swings in"

I had a bit in my response about the shocks and dropped it, should have left it I guess.

The upper shock mount is getting moved to get the shock closer to 90. If you look at the pics on page 2 of the thread, the first still had the upper mount and the next trunk pic with the down stays has that area cut out.

Will end up with something like this awesome sketch I just did...



The wheel tub is even with the outside edge of the frame rail. Since the car will have the most tire possible for asphalt road course stuff, I can't do the turrets outside the rail and in the wheel tub. No room for the tire, unless it was a narrow gravel tire. The shock will end up on the inside of the leaf as vertical as possible. Not sure if they are going to mess with the lower mount or not. I think it is over far enough now to get it vertical. Hard to tell from the pic and I'm not there unfortunately to check it out.



Thanks,

Kevin Wesley
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DG_Rally
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
December 20, 2013 01:58PM
Quote
phlat65
Here is my car that was logbooked in 2010 RA, and never had a complaint.

To be clear, your back-stays end at the wheel well and don't have a bend. The offending back-stays that were on my car went practically to the taillights and had a bend (similar to those on Kevin's car above).



Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com
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alkun
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
December 20, 2013 07:43PM
Quote
phlat65
Here is my car that was logbooked in 2010 RA, and never had a complaint.

Thats just because you are so pretty.
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kwesley
Kevin Wesley
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
January 29, 2014 09:18AM
Mike Hurst approved all the cage changes, so sounds like it's good to go. I am having them put the "V" into the rear backstays since the roof has the "V" bar arrangement. Mike said it wasn't necessary based on RA rules, but NASA clearly says that element is required. So, no big deal, in it goes.

Here are some updated pics of the progress...











Trans cross member...





The rear back stay gusset...



Downtubes in engine compartment...





Upper shock mount bracing. This will allow the bump stop to be moved to the shock body. It was on the lower control arm and has always been an issue limiting travel when the car is lowered.







Motor mounts...





You can see my electric column in this shot. It will get a Saturn Vue/Corsa/etc... electric column, Howe Racing 2:1 quickener and all hooked to a stock 24:1 box. If I want to speed it up more, I can use a fast ratio pitman/idler and it will be down near 10.7:1.



They've sorted out the under hood bracing...





Mike Hurst took a look at what they planned for the seat mounts and signed off on those as well. Still waiting on pics, but should have some more stuff in the next few days.



Thanks,

Kevin Wesley
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NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
January 29, 2014 09:43AM
Some lovely fab work in there.



Grant Hughes
http://rally.build
Denver, CO
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Clayto
Clayton McCrary
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
January 30, 2014 02:16AM
Really nice! Lots of detail
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Mark Lewis
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
January 30, 2014 11:08AM
Very, very nice work!
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alkun
Albert Kun
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
January 30, 2014 11:22PM
WAY too nice to rally...
Build a GLH for duh dirt!
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kwesley
Kevin Wesley
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1976 Dodge Dart Lite


Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
January 31, 2014 08:05AM
Quote
alkun
WAY too nice to rally...
Build a GLH for duh dirt!

I had my days with L bodies many years ago and rallied a Neon for a couple years. This will be way more fun and serve multiple disciplines.

It will be quite some time before it hits gravel. Probably not until late 2015 or 2016 most likely. I am looking forward to tarmac with it though. That will be fun.



Thanks,

Kevin Wesley
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kwesley
Kevin Wesley
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1976 Dodge Dart Lite


Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
March 20, 2014 03:53PM
Still making progress. Should still be done in plenty of time to make it to the track this year.

Finished underhood bracing...



Trans Tunnel and Seat Mounts. Tunnel is removable for trans service.







Raised driveshaft tunnel...



They have the fuel cell done as well, but haven't loaded the pics yet. I'll update once those show up.

Major fab work is starting to dwindle down. They still have to do the electric steering mount, rear shock mounts, trunk floor, bumper brackets, dash and console. Not a ton left for them and I should have it back to me in the next couple weeks.



Thanks,

Kevin Wesley
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mke723
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Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
March 20, 2014 11:23PM
This is amazing, and i second that it should not see gravel duty.



I be sorry as a muthafucka I did, still sorry I did n' hustled ta peep what tha fuck I holla'd a lil' bit better, or at least try to.
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urr
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urr
Re: Cage, Door Bars and Gussets - The '76 Dart Lite Build
March 21, 2014 12:19PM
Proper build....perfect for chucking rocks at adoring fans!
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