Mk4 VW suspension thoughts
Posted by Grantmac
Grantmac Grant MacDonald Professional Moderator Location: Victoria, BC Join Date: 12/15/2013 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 18 Rally Car: None |
Hello all,
I've found my way here because this seems to be a place where people can discuss somewhat out of the box suspension ideas. I've done a good search so I have a reasonable idea of whom I could hand money to and walk away with some decent gravel-spec suspension. Now that we have that out of the way, I'm not in need of something that hard-core nor do I have the budget to get it. All I do is drive the local logging roads along with a very occasional rallycross (none locally anymore). I do however like to drive my TDI pretty much anywhere and that means the stock suspension isn't up to the job. Heck it's not really up to a small pothole. I've got the facilities to make my own threaded strut housings so my thought is to find a stock strut insert that will suit my purpose. All the reading I've done seems to indicate that the 36mm inverted Bilsteins are probably very close to the right match for what I'm after. What I'm trying to find is which ones would have the most travel and closest valving for my purposes. Getting that data out of Bilstein seems to be like pulling teeth, so I've been cross-referencing with other strut manufactures. It seems like the P36-0370 inserts used on 90-96 Audi Quattro applications might be the closest match. I've appreciate any input from people who have any experience with these units, or who have any suggestions for other applications I should be looking at. Ideally I'd like something with 170-180mm of travel and I'm likely going to be running 250lbs/in 12" springs. Thanks, Grant |
BJosephD Brian j Dyer Ultra Moderator Location: southern maine Join Date: 05/01/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 381 Rally Car: 04 Rocky Mountain MTB... |
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Robert Culbertson Out of this dumpster fire Professional Moderator Join Date: 08/15/2010 Posts: 1,236 |
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Only if you are slow. Does somebody who knows production and materials want to explain to the poor guy why the idea is a poor use of time and money? come on Robert, you can.. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Grantmac Grant MacDonald Professional Moderator Location: Victoria, BC Join Date: 12/15/2013 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 18 Rally Car: None |
Brian:
Names are always good! You wouldn't happen to still have any of the CAD files would you? Robert: Good to know. This car is 3000# and staying that way though, I seem to recall that 250# springs are pretty common in the Subaru world and I'm not sure they carry any less weight over the front axle. John: If I had cubic money I'd be asking you to make me something. I'd probably also not be driving a TDI (the ultimate cheapskate mobile). But since I am broke, the stock suspension is DEAD, Bilstein HD struts are substantially more expensive then inserts, I love DIY and I have a machine shop: this seems like a reasonable endeavor. I realize that a MK4 Golf is basically the Anti-Rallycar, but it's what I've got. If I was going to run stage rally I'd be looking for something else, probably a Mk1 or Swift GTi (love that motor). But at this time in my life that dream is a ways. Thanks, Grant |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Nuthing wrong with MkIV. Excelent results were had by VW in British F2 wif MkIV... They even ran a diesel for a while---and were totally baffled and they said so. ------>If you want to call I will have a leisurely ciggie and say why it is a poor use of time and resources and talk alternatives---You may be surprised. But I am not going to waste a bunch of time typing this for the 10-12th time like before--and note: none of them got anything done----except one that just was nearer)(by lopping off fixed seats---decided after all the wisdom on the Intra-web on : TOO SHORT travel--too long pins and damping values too stiff for a 1230kg Escort Cosworth. Too bad it was on a car that weighed only 60% of that. It is the stingy man who pays the most... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Grantmac Grant MacDonald Professional Moderator Location: Victoria, BC Join Date: 12/15/2013 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 18 Rally Car: None |
John:
Truth is the budget for this just won't support anything that isn't off the (near bottom) shelf. The only time this car is going to have air under the front tires is on jackstands. So likely I won't see any conditions that will require more than 160-170mm of travel. But if I can find something available with a little more then I will take it. I should make it clear: I'm not going to be lopping off any seats or pulling dampers out of assembled struts. A set of Bilstein HD struts for a Mk4 would probably suit my purposes fairly well, but they are substantially more expensive then just finding a set of inserts and they aren't available as an inverted strut (does that even matter?). Time spent machining/welding is enjoyable to me. I don't do it for a living so the time costs me nothing. The car is also 1350Kg with well over 60% of that on the front wheels. It's a fat pig that just happens to be what I've got to play with (and gets great mileage). How bad could a little extra damping be? I will compose my thoughts and give you a call once I've had some time to think. -Grant |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Thinking is wasted time if you don't know what you are thinking about... And more importantly, it really doesn't matter much what we think---since we are all human, all subject to passions, and ideas in our own head which can cause wrong thinking.. What matters is to do the right thing. We can "think" we are calculating and reasoning 'the right thing"----and we are often wrong. We can "think" we are doing thje wrong thing---but if we DO the right thing---does it matter what we were 'thinking"? Thinking is far far over-rated because we usually don't have enough solid knowledge to know fully the elements of what we are thinking of. I'm cleaning van and car and puttering around... You want to call, fine. You want to "think"---whatever. I haven't even begun to wonder what machines you have access to, and how much skill you have and the questions of if you even KNOW what you must do.. None of the other dozen guys with the same idea did.. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Grantmac Grant MacDonald Professional Moderator Location: Victoria, BC Join Date: 12/15/2013 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 18 Rally Car: None |
I analyse complex systems for a living. Thinking is what I do. I'm not the sort of person who just does something without understanding how and why it works. Same goes for buying things, I'm not a "take my money and tell me it's awesome, who cares about the specs" kind of consumer.
The Mk4 probably has the simplest strut housing to build, no need to make any brackets that hold anything more critical then a brake line. It's literally a tube with the correct OD to fit the knuckle and ID to fit the insert. Cutting threads on a screw-cutting lathe isn't exactly rocket science and steel is cheap. I'm not intending on making my own bushings or anything like that, hence looking at inserts which are OEM replacements even if it limits the piston diameter. But do I really need anything bigger than 36mm anyways? I'm budgeting (not joking) $250 a corner for the front. Asking for what you make at a price anywhere NEAR that would be insulting. Yaking your ear off only to go DIY it anyway also doesn't seem fair. If I was competitive I'd just work two jobs to afford the good stuff, I understand the concept of complete faith in your equipment allowing you to push things. This is literally going on a streetcar that sees the occasional pothole covered logging road and rallycross. I have the luxury of being able to just slow down, I don't need suspension which can take more pounding then a pornstar. -Grant |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Analyzing simple mechanical system is one part of what I have done for I dunno 45 years. Making parts for sometimes simple mechanical systems, sometimes complex systems---sometimes extremely--unfathomably complex systems is a major part of what I have done more or less daily for oh....44 years...
Your job is to think.... mine is to think and make. If you go about thinking about making struts in the same way that you have done here, it maybe an awful long time before you finally realise the results. Lose the dogma...no إن شاء الله In the words especially apropos today of all days "Nothing is written!" Bonus points who knows why those words are so much more important today... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
DexterVW David Baker Elite Moderator Location: Rhode my Island Join Date: 11/20/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 290 Rally Car: 95 GTI TDI |
Wow John really??!.. a guy with a machine shop doesn't make stuff... turn that down a few notches this isn't Spinal Tap
He's rocking something himself, he's stated that from the beginning. So its a waist of time to you... why even bother with the first key stroke. Grant, check out the Shine real street suspension (well find specs on it at least as they are out of business now) it was a slightly stronger, stock to slightly raised suspension setup based around bilstien HD's using what I believe was springs from Blue Coil... and worked wonders on Mk3's and 4's for a good street car orientated all round suspension (they where based out of NE so knew potholes and front heaves and the such) Good luck with the build and let us know how it turns out. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Why?-- because I want people to have fun. Frustration--wasting time and MORE money than it is desired---the budget being another simple whim--failing IS NOT fun. I volunteer to tell him what to do--so he avoids the blunders that ALL the others who have had the same idea---in in 12 of which made anything---and did everything wrong (length overall, travel, valving, design of top mounts all which needed re-doing which costs more---and you say "why even bother with the first key stroke?" Remember I said one of the things I do is analyse complicated systems---as part of what I do.. Try this simple analysis: Guy says he wants to build some stuff, says he has a crazy low budget (analysis: where did the budget figure come from? ---Hint: same place that every guy with a 330,000 mile beat Volvo gets their figure when they say "I want to have 400 whp", that's where) but he comes onto a forum where there is TONS of info on building things and asks, in essence "How do I do this?" And I'm a baddie for saying "CALL"---and not wanting to type a bunch of useless stuff? Why the first keystroke of telling the guy to find Shine stuff---which was like all other stuff: too short, too stiff (because its too short), and leaves a guy with using either stock horrible junk top bearing, or rather expensive ones---way past his budget? Your advice is helpful? I don't think so. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Junior Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
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DexterVW David Baker Elite Moderator Location: Rhode my Island Join Date: 11/20/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 290 Rally Car: 95 GTI TDI |
John, where did he say he needed a long travel suspension system? Where did he say he needed new top mounts? Where did he say he wanted a xratty formula car?
Have you forgotten that there are people out here using other stuff and getting along just fine? Why is it my buddies all use Shine on their back country/rallyx cars coupled with Bilsteins and kick some ass with it? Its tight enough to have fun on the road, loose enough to not rattle your teeth out on the dirt, strong enough not to collapse in the Michigan sized pot holes and cheap enough for the budget minded person. Sure our guy Grant here wants to put on some threaded sleeves and rock some off the shelf coil over springs... sounds good to me, he could use the shine spring rates as a basis to start and go from there... And let him blunder... maybe he sees something differently from you and is that 144th person that tries and figures something wonderful out that he shares with the rest of us ... he wants help with his questions not down trodden with the way he's going about it. Maybe share your contacts at bilstein, or talk valving, or shut up and let the rest of us talk it though. here are some questions he's asked that you with your amazing knowledge might be able to answer for him... That I have zero idea on... 1. (talking about piston diameter) But do I really need anything bigger than 36mm anyways? 2. I've appreciate any input from people who have any experience with these units, or who have any suggestions for other applications I should be looking at. Ideally I'd like something with 170-180mm of travel and I'm likely going to be running 250lbs/in 12" springs. 3.How bad could a little extra damping be? |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
You tell him everything then.. Blind leading the blind, that ought to turn out good, just like always. NOTE: I WOULD tell him stuff, I repeated that several times, but I'm not going to TYPE--which is infinitely slower than speaking---you have a problem understanding clear fucking English? John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
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